That’s a very solid point Jeff. The word translated “second” does not necessarily mean “second in order”, but signifies “other” and could be translated such, as in “the other death”. And of course “dying to self” is a solid theme in both the Gospels and the epistles. Love demands dying to self. This is where I find the spiritualist’ interpretation of Revelation so powerful for it speaks to the struggle of good and evil within us all. The question is thus, will we die-to-self willingly, or will we continue to allow the beast-within to reign in our lives?
Sherman, I wonder whether John’s audience in Asia-Minor would have really appreciated the Lake of Fire being a metaphor of the Dead Sea. I suspect that John was talking to churches who were predominantly non-Jewish by then, and who mightn’t have been that familiar with that area.
That said, I can confirm the toxicity of the Dead Sea! The water burns your lips and nose, it’s taste is painfully acidic and honestly, getting Dead Sea water in your eyes is perhaps the closest earthly experience to the pain of Hell! (Although the salinity was probably worse than it was in John’s day). That said, it’s great fun too! I tried swimming to Israel but only got a half/third of the way (we didn’t want to get arrested) 
Something I certainly couldn’t have attempted in normal water!
Common sense would dictate that it can not be a place where there are literal flames which burn forever, within which lives writhe in unending agony. What kind of glory would God receive by the establishment of such a scenario? Does it make sense that any of us should suffer for billions of years (and that’s just the beginning?) for simply having rejected Christ within a lifespan of no more than eight or nine decades? If that were the case, the hell would clearly exist within the mind of the one who either created such a scenario or passively permitted it and refused to do anything about it. Who among us, with barely a flawed human conscience, would not want to save someone who is trapped in a burning house? How in the world, then, can any of us dare to attribute such a diabolical nature to the God whose mercies endure forever, who has declared that He was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not holding our trespasses against us?
David
I agree. 
the LOF is the dead sea? 
why’d you quote me here? i’m asking questions about a theory that says the LoF may be the dead sea…i haven’t put it forward.
this is still more proof you aren’t really reading anyone’s posts.
Where in the world do you guys come up with this stuff? 
My theory on the LoF (yes, yet ANOTHER theory!) is that the LoF is in fact the presence and glory (revelation) of God. If you have truly died to self, it won’t affect you for pain but rather for joy. If there is selfishness and fleshly orientation left, well, God’s holiness is bound to burn that out.
Remember how the Israelites felt when they had seen the mountain that burned with fire and heard the very voice of God? They said, “Please don’t let God speak to us directly lest we die.” (Well, something like that anyhow.) And they were right. A direct encounter with Almighty God WILL kill you; the natural you. We can choose to lay down our lives and live by the life of Christ or we can cling to our lives . . . for now.
Jesus told Martha, just before He raised Lazarus, “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.” I asked Him about this, and the answer I believe I received was that He wasn’t even counting physical death when He said this. If we believe and follow Him (that is, if we LIVE – by His life) we will never die because we have passed from death into life already.
(Back to my own musings) Everyone else, who doesn’t believe for whatever reason still has that death ahead of them. But as we passed from death into life, why shouldn’t they also pass from death into life? And how long that takes perhaps depends on how much selfishness is present and on how tenaciously the sinner clings to the self life.
So, to sum up; I believe (and this could of course change) that the LoF is most likely the very sea of God’s presence which is, to those being saved, the fragrance of life, and to those currently headed in the other direction, the stench of death. Once the stinky stuff is gone, you can begin to smell the delightful fragrance of the myrrh and aloes of the Son.
Blessings, Cindy
WAAB, I just read the post you linked, and it IS epic. Soooo well done! Thanks for taking the time to share this!
Actually the Greek text calls it “the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone”, not just “the lake of fire”. Note the article “the” preceding both “fire” and “burning brimstone”. Most people ASSUME that the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone references something like a molten lake of lava, but such is an “assumption”. John does not describe what he saw, only names it. But I covered all this in a few different posts on this thread and other related threads. But you may have missed them.
Because of John preceding both fire and burning brimstone with the article “the” it seems he, John, had a specific lake in mind. And considering Sodom, Gomorrah and the other 3 cities were destroyed by fire and brimstone, which Jude says is an example of aionian judgment, and their ash remains are on the West coast of the Dead Sea, and asphalt bubbles up from the bottom of the lake, and gas pockets vent, and … Well, I covered all that in the previous email. Considering the location, geology, and infamous history, and biblical references to that area, it seems to me that the Dead Sea fits John’s reference to the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone. The Greeks actually called the Dead Sea, Lake Asphaltites because of the tar pits and asphault that comes out of the lake. The book Wisdom of Solomon actually says it was a land of fires. And there are other extra-biblical references that speak of that area being a land of smoke and fires.
But of course, if you have some biblical or extra-biblical evidence that suggests that the lake of fire and the burning brimstone is some other lake than the Dead Sea, please present such for consideration. Or if you think it’s a volcanic lake of lava, present why. Most people assume such, but such is an assumption as far as I know.
The Dead Sea was well known throughout Asia Minor. Herod built Masada there. And I don’t think it was a “metaphor” of the Dead Sea but that John was referencing the Dead Sea. I don’t know for certain that John was referencing the Dead Sea; it just make sense to me.
I raise this primarily as a means of discussing the possibility of such, and seeing if there is any evidence to the contrary.
I’d love to go to Israel some day, swim in the Dead Sea, see the ash remains of Sodom and bring a little brimstone home with me.
Cindy, your view resonates with my own theosis view (that Yahweh graciously wants us to genuinely lay down the Flesh nature/will and take up the Divine nature/will and that this will be finally accomplished for all within the Lake of Fire). So I agree that the sort of will we have is the single definitive difference between the reprobate and the repentant. I have quite a lot of things to iron out, but I think it generally fits. So do you believe that the Kingdom and the Lake of Fire are just metaphors for different subjective states of existence, and may even occupy the same space?
Thanks for your encouraging compliment (and you too Corpselight!). I’m rewriting everything I wrote in that thread to present to a UR-interested friend. Hopefully it’ll help him with his own study (even if he rejects UR).
I certainly think its reasonable as it ties in with the Sodom references quite well. I suppose that whether John is referencing the Dead Sea, or another Lake of Fire, the metaphor for redemptive judgement wouldn’t differ, right?
for the last time, i did not “come up with this”
i was evaluating it as put forward by another member and asking questions.
Thats pretty much how I see it too. Being baptized with fire happens now us, its painful at times. Why would being baptized with fire later be neverending punishment?
Agreed, either way to me it speaks of redemptive judgment whether experienced in this life or the life-to-come. To me though, it referencing the Dead Sea is more compelling because of its association with Sodom and Gomorrah, which is an example of aionian fire, God’s judgment of evil.
Punishment language is always couched in the harshest of terms. Revelations was meant to encourage those under persecution, affirming that evil will ultimately be destroyed and God will ultimately triumph over all. And ultimately those who are doing the persecuting will, after experiencing the terrible judgment of God, will submit to God and pay homage where such is due.
Justice brings about what is right, restoration. In the concept of ECT there is no end to evil, only the propogation thereof.
Cindy, I was fascinated by your thoughts on the lake of fire being a “fragrance of life, and to those currently headed in the other direction, the stench of death.” I too believe that it is the presence of God, and I also believe that it unfolds gradually, degree by degree, becoming stronger and stronger, until the right amount (so to speak) of His glory is infused into the one who is being purged and renewed by that very presence.
I would rather be be cast into the fire of His presence, regardless of what might transpire in the process, than to actually allow my will (if that were possible) to lead me toward an unknown outcome, based upon my misguided choices. THAT would be a much more horrifying prospect.
David
So true, David . . . Me too, though it hurts. 
I hope i am not just going in circles and rehashing everything over again and ignoring all that you guys have said, but once again i have questions. 
Please bare with me.
I am totally confused here.
Okay, in…
Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
What is the smoke of their torment?
And they have no rest day or night? Eternity has days and nights? Who knew?
It also appears that its only the ones that worshiped the beast and received his mark are the ones that have no rest day or night with their smoke ascending forever and ever…
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Yes, along with those that received the mark of the beast as stated in Rev 14:9-11…those whose smoke ascends non-stop…
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Now is that Hades? Does this mean all dead people? Or does “death and hades” mean something more symbolic?
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I am assuming in Rev 20:15 are simply unbelievers in general because it says ‘whosoever’, and not the ones that took the mark of the beast.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
What I am getting is that it’s the people that took the mark of the beast, the devil and the false prophet are the ones whose smoke is ascending forever and who will have no rest. (Not the rest of humanity who simply aren’t “saved”.)
But how is it the lake of fire isn’t considered the second death for them? Seems its only called the second death for unbelievers and when death and Hades are cast into it. And how could the ones that took the mark of the beast, the devil and the false prophet have no rest day or night while in the lake of fire…and yet have the lake of fire be called the second death in other versus. Is the lake of fire a continuous experience? …Or is it the second death? Or is it both and simply not mentioned in said versus? And if its the same, how could a second “death” be non-stop day and night foever and ever? Seems like a pretty long un-restful death if you ask me… 
Sorry for re-hashing things…it happens.
Caroleem
Un-restful is putting it mildly…The second death is nothing short than eternal torment beyond our finite minds in the lake of fire separated from God.
John is describing what he saw in his vision. He saw smoke ascending beyond site. Have you ever watched a large fire up close and saw the smoke ascend out of site? That’s what John saw. As to the “what” the smoke is, I don’t know. John does not interpret his visions, short movie clips; he only shares them and leaves them wide open for the reader to interpret. It’s artistic apocalyptic literature. We can read many different things into it, but it’s important to realize we’re “reading into” it our beliefs. Those who believe in ECT will naturally “read into” these paintings their beliefs. Those who do not believe in ECT will not “read into” them ECT.
Being I see UR in the rest of scripture, and understand judgment to be about accomplishing righteousness and justice in us all, it’s natural for me to see in this the concept of “sleep deprivation” which is a common means of interrogation used by authorities to break through deception and arrive at the truth. It breaks down one’s resistance, one’s will.
For me, the reality that John’s Revelation is apocalyptic literature informs me that it is meant to be interpreted artistically, not academically, emotionally, not logically! Such visions are a powerful means of communicating, but by their very nature they are very personal. John does not tell us what these visions said to him, he only shares the vision. God has given me visions before, and in receiving the vision I received the understanding, what God was saying to me. Others whom I share the vision with do not know what God said to me through the vision without me sharing the interpretation. John does not share what these visions meant to him, but leaves them open for God to speak to us personally and individually through these visions.
Sadly, many people fail to understand the significance of this being apocalyptic literature and thus insist on others reading into these visions what they read into them. For me, John’s visions are powerfully and emotionally encouraging highlighting that God triumphs over all, that He ultimately overcomes all evil and reigns forever; and I trust that such is true for me and for everyone else. These visions not only picture what happened in Jerusalem, but what was going to happen in Rome (Preterist perspective), and what happens throughout history will all of man’s kingdoms (Historical perspective), what ultimately happens in each of us individually (Spiritualist perspective),and ultimately what will happen with all of creation (Futurist perspective). It’s a diamond that shines forth different facets of different hues depending on the angle from which one views is. But one simply cannot see the full spectrum of light from any one given facet. And if one gets to fixed on any one facet, one misses seeing the whole diamond. (tree/forest analogy works also).