The Evangelical Universalist Forum

? on the Lake of Fire & Second Death

I haven’t found any specific thread that just strictly focuses on this important issue. I’m sorry if it’s redundant. There are so many threads and posts that perhaps this has been answered somewhere, just don’t know where. Doing a search can take a long, long time. Far too many threads and posts to sift thru… I don’t have the patience. :blush:

My 2 questions are…

1.What exactly is the Lake of Fire?

  1. What is the Second death?

Some say the lake of fire is literal, some say it’s God’s presence, some say it produces repentance…and so on…
And the second death, some say it is really death, as in, annihilation. I say, couldn’t it be death as in dying to one’s sinful nature? :question:
Other’s say the lake of fire is only for satan, the beast and the false prophet. Some say its for them and really bad sinners, the real evil folk.

As soon as i feel i got the answer down, I go and read something by a so-called EU, not by the ECT crowd…that confuses me once again. :angry:

So what is the Lake of Fire and the Second Death? Is it really that hard to ever truly know? :cry:

There is difficulty in understanding these texts because they are apocalyptic visions. There are some really diverse views. I’m currently writing my view on what I think the Lake of Fire is, over on the threadKings of the Earth. But in short, I suspect that the Lake of Fire is God’s purifying self, in which all humanity (and all fallen spirits) must be baptized. Not to satisfy a temper or further payment, but for our wills to be perfectly conformed to the divine will (to be deified/glorified). Like you, I think the Second Death is the death of the old will (the old man). Christians have a head start in this life, which is a profound blessing and privilege. But I’m still thinking all of this stuff through :slight_smile: I don’t think we have to worry about it. I’m convinced we have people entering and leaving the Lake of Fire (see the Kings of the Earth thread) and we have countless texts describing an ultimate and universal reconciliation. How God will complete His plan is peripheral.

Thank you We are brothers and i believe that too. :slight_smile:

I finally posted up my thoughts on the Lake of Fire here, if you were interested in checking it out…

that was an epic post, WAAB. very nicely done. i can’t deny that this is a “difficult passage” in Revelations, and it’s nice to hear some of the terminology expanded. it does seem to me that a remedial punishment is the most likely explanation, especially balanced against the rest of Scripture. that it doesn’t explicitly say it in a clear fashion is the hard thing.

however there are loads of things the Bible doesn’t say explicitly, but the hinting helps us formulate our thoughts into doctrines on a variety of topics.

also we can’t forget the Holy Spirit’s assistence in this, though i won’t claim that i myself am good at discerning this.

As I share in the thread Lake of Fire = Dead Sea ([Lake of Fire = Dead Sea)) it is possible, even probable imo, that John actually saw in his vision the Dead Sea - the lake of the fire and the burning sulfur. The ash remains of Sodom and Gomorrah burnt with fire and brimstone are on its West banks. It, the Dead Sea, has tar, asphault, bubble up from it’s bottom. And geological surveys of the area indicate significant pockets of gas under the Dead Sea; when these vent it only takes a spark to have flames coming out of the water, like oil slicks that catch fire or gas burning on top of the water. The area also has significant quantities of sulfur, brimstone. And in Revelation, the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone after the battle of Armegedon which is relatively very near the Dead Sea. And this occurs before the scene of the New Heavens and the New Earth (whatever that means). It thus seems very likely to me that John saw in his visions the beast and false prophet, all wickedness and evil ultimately being cast into the Dead Sea.

A picture of evil being cast into the Dead Sea, a salt saturated body of water, is significantly different than things being cast into, let’s say, a volcanic lake of molten lava. The later would seem to be much more torturous, physically excruciating, and unbearable. Whereas things being cast into the Dead Sea would not speak of unbearable, unimaginable torture, would, to me, speak of things being cast aside as worthless and useless; and it would call to mind images of Moses, John, Elijah, and even Jesus being tried, tested in the barren desert wilderness of that area.

I think this reflects the biggest challenge of such apocalyptic literature, that being the very Subjective nature of it. Such artistic means of communication (visions, poetry, paintings, movie clips, etc.) are by their very nature open to a wide range of interpretations. What people see in such visions (movie clips) is often more of a reflection of what they already believe and feel, than of what the painter necessarily intended to communicate. And what the painter or director wanted to communicate through the moving picture is challenging to discern. The big messages are often pretty easily discerned, but the details may or may not have a meaning. They might just be filler.

I believe that the main message of John’s visions is that Jesus is in charge, the King of kings and Lord of lords. The visions Reveal who Jesus Is! He’s the one who is ultimately in charge, the Lamb and the Conquering King! The other details are almost just filler.

Anyway, it’s also significant to note that the word translated “second” in the “second death” does not necessarily mean “second in order” but can also be translated as “other”, the “other death”. The “first” death to be spoken of, and the one that shall ultimately come to an end is “physical” death. One day all dying shall cease. I think that the “other death” that is pictured here is a “death to self”, like where Jesus says that “whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it”, or becoming “dead to sin” as Paul calls it.

But then again, that’s the challenge of apocalyptic literature; it is open to a very wide range of interpretaions because it is very subjective. Just like people see paintings from different perspectives, resulting in different interpretations. So though I see UR in the visions of Revelation, such is definitely a reflection of my beliefs, not necessarily what Jesus intended to convey. But that same principle is true for anyone else’s interpretation of these series of moving pictures!

The lake of fire is what its sounds like. I envision the lake of fire similar to the lava of a volcano but much much worse. Its a place where Satan, the false prophet, the beast, all fallen angels and all unbelievers are cast into for all eternity.

The second death is actually being thrown into the lake of fire but what gets you there is the nature of the life in your spirit is spiritual death. There is a physical death. There is a spiritual death. The second death is experiencing spiritual death after physical death. Have you heard the saying " If you are born once you die twice and if you are born twice you die once" that is what it means to experience the second death.

Thanks guys for your comments. :slight_smile:

Revival, i appreciate your comment but i really dont believe that way. If i did, i wouldn’t be posting at this forum. I post here because i believe the scriptures teach UR for all. :slight_smile:

helpful hint: try prefixing your comments with “in my opinion” or “i believe that” and you’ll come across as less of a know-it-all.
personally, i’ve been studying this Bible of ours in a variety of translations for 29 years and i still don’t think i can definitely say “this means this” and “that means that” with 100% certainty.

you’re forgetting he’s led of the Holy Spirit, we’re not

good point…my bad :wink:

Actually the Greek text reads “the lake of The fire and The burning brimstone”; it’s much more specific than a general description. And to me it calls to mind The fir and The burning brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the lake from which the fire and burning brimstone likely shot out of - the Dead Sea.

The Dead Sea, though being on a fault line, is not a volcano lake of lava, but is a lake of water underwhich is gas, sulfur, and asphault. Picturing something or someone being cast into the Dead Sea is significantly different than picturing something or someone being cast into a volcanic lake of lava.

The lake of the fire and the burning brimstone being an idiomatic name for what we call today the Dead Sea is a strong likelyhood imo. This though highlights one of the primary challenges of interpreting such visions; simply understanding what John actually saw is a challenge. It would have been wonderful if he could have painted it, or explained it in much more detail so that we’d have a better, more informed, concept of what he saw. And this doesn’t even take into consideration the fact that it’s apocalyptic literature, literature meant to inspire and encourage but not necessarily meant to interpret technically, artistically, not necessarily systematically.

And having been destroyed in a rather ‘lake of fire’ fashion, Sodom and Gomorrah are referred to as going to be returned to their former estate as sisters of Jerusalem (is that an illustration of people getting out of the lake of fire and being restored hmmm!) :slight_smile:

that seems compelling… hmmm indeed :slight_smile:

And of course, the destruction of Sodom is referenced as an example of suffering the punishment of aionian fire, Jude 1:7. So the link between the Dead Sea and Revelation’s lake of the fire and the burning brimstone seems very strong. Of course, elsewhere in prophecy, not only are Sodom and Gomorrah restored, but even the Dead Sea is reclaimed and restored, just like Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) is reclaimed as holy to the Lord!

The Dead Sea is certainly not a pleasant place to be cast into. The water is toxic. One has to be careful to not inhale any of the water if splashed. It’s a desert climate so being surrounded by water but unable to drink would be terrible, especially with water just outside the valley. It’s the worst part of the Judean wilderness. And the wilderness is a place of tempting and testing in scripture.

And though the Dead Sea is not pleasant, it is certainly not a volcanic lake of lava. Sadly, people have “assumed” the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone to be like a volcanic lake of lava so long, and it has been reinforced so much by other writings like Dante’s Inferno, Mary Baxter’s “Divine Revelation of Hell”, and more recently Weiss’ “23 Minutes in Hell”, that it is difficult, nigh impossible, for people to re-imagine the scenes in Revelation - regardless of how much evidence there is that contradicts their assumptions.

what happens when death and hades are cast into it, if it’s the dead sea? i’m just curious…does the metaphor then become one of drowning death and hades?
also, do we lose the image of the refining fire? or was that ever important for this? maybe the refining fire and LoF are totally different concepts?
just thinking out loud and wanting to explore the implications :slight_smile:
i must say i had been convinced not to believe in hell before i embraced UR, so going back to believing in any kind of hell temporary or not feels wrong to me (though i will if i have to).
so the idea of the LoF being a purgatorial sentence seems odd to me by that token, though i could understand a washing (or scouring) of the soul before being presented to Christ…
sorry if this is rambly lol, nearly the end of the day and i’m not all here!

The Dead Sea was where what is judged and useless and burnt up ends up. The ash of Sodom and Gomorrah washes into the Dead Sea when there is rain, though it be infrequent. I too am wrestling with the significance of seeing the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone as the Dead Sea instead of as some type of volcanic lake of lava. The Dead Sea is also a place of healing and treatment of various ailments, especially skin diseases. So though it is not a “pleasant” place, it is visited by people for medicinal purposes. And ths salt and mud from the Dead Sea is sold around the world.

Does this imply then that this is a place of punishment, reflection, and even healing? As noted by others in this thread, brimstone, sulfur was used medicinally. I don’t know. I would have loved to have interviewed John to see what all these visions meant to him. Of course, he doesn’t tell us what these visions meant to him. Did he understand them to speak of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and/or Rome? Or how about to the ongoing struggle within each of us and within every culture of the battle between good and evil? Or things to come way in the future of the relatively few years before the 2nd coming of Christ? He just doesn’t say.

Also, I like to seek to understand a passage first, without considering how it effects any given theology. If John saw the Dead Sea in his visions, then we need to work to understand the passage based on that. If it effects something we believe then that’s great.

As to purgatorial type fire, punishing sins after death, well, the more I think on it, the more I wonder if that’s affirmed clearly in scripture. I see the possibility of such, and at judgment we will certainly see much of what we’ve spent our lives on go up in smoke as worthless and useless. And in this life there is certainly devestation and destruction that comes to us and our loved ones because of our sin.

I do see the Truth, well, burning the hell out of us all, a baptism in fire that purifies, delivers, heals, and transforms us. Jesus came to baptize us in the Spirit and in fire! If this doesn’t happen in this life, surely it will in the life to come. So though it be painful, kills our flesh, it will liberate our spirits.

Concerning Revelation, I wouldn’t base doctrine on Revelation, but see the visions of Revelation as pictures of what I see firmly established elsewhere in scripture. In other words, I wouldn’t rely on Revelation’s the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone as proof for purgatory, hell, annihilation, or anything else; rather, I’d recognize our tendency to see in these visions what we already believe.

One imagines that the death of death would mean… life… wouldn’t it?

It also seems reasonable that the overcomers are not hurt of the second death because they have already undergone it voluntarily in this life. The unfaithful christian (steward) receives his/her portion with the unbelievers; so does that mean that backsliding christians (those given over to satan for the destruction of the flesh but saved as through fire?) ARE hurt of the second death (burning up their wood, hay and stubble)?

Interpreting John’s visions is like interpreting movie clips from the Matrix or the Lord of the Rings. One can read all kinds of things into them. But I have to wonder, were they meant to communicate details? Or were they primarily meant to convey a few main themes like Good overcomes Evil eventually?

The very nature of apocalyptic, poetic, artistic literature makes it very difficult to interpret systematically. It’s a powerful means of communicating concepts and emotions, but very weak in communicating systematic details. It seems though that many people today want to interpret it systematically, drawing their diagrams, laying out time-tables, seeing in it specific current events, calling names and specifying dates.

To me though, interpreting Revelation from a futuristic perspective is the least substantial and least applicable to our lives today. To me the preterist view of Revelation is the most solid. And the spirituralist view is the most applicable.

thanks Sherman, i do agree with you.

if the LoF is actually the Dead Sea, which as you say is also a place of healing, then i don’t mind if all my other theories have to come in line with that.

however, as you say, the best thing is that Revelation is not our sole source of information. the whole Bible makes some amazing claims, which if Revelation didn’t back up, i would not believe it to be innerrant Scripture. Revelation, being one book, must be interpreted in the light of the rest of the Bible. and with utmost caution as you say, because the imagery and symbolism is so very vague.