I have previously read on this forum how the open gates are evidence of post-mortem opportunity for those who had not previously received Christ. I have now had a little time to read the last chapters of Revelation with a view to confirming this stance but I am presently disappointed to say that I cannot see how the text suggests anything of the sort. I am hoping that I am wrong and that someone can explain how the scriptures imply that the open gates are pointing to post-mortem salvation (or whatever).
God bless
John
Pilgrim,
Good point. Although I have made up my mind to become a Universalist the gates could be open simply so that the righteous can go out to look at the dead bodies like they did in the O.T.
Then it goes on to say in verse 15
Although, I do agree it can be taken several different ways. I take this to mean this: When you are tired of of practicing falsehood, wash your robes, go to the tree of life (Jesus) and enter the city by the Gates!
Hi Pilgrim,
As I see it, the City is representative of the Church – it is the Bride of Christ – it is the people of God. I don’t think this is a literal brick and mortar city. The fact of the gates being open means that those outside the church are able to enter – that is, they are able to be saved. In addition to the open gates, there is the light of God which shines out of it to “enlighten” every man (Jn 1:9) and the river of life flowing from the throne, down the main road and presumably out the gates so that those who wish may wash their robes in it and obtain entrance to the tree of life.
Sonia
Hi Sonia,
The way you see it is exactly as we find it in Revelation:
I don’t see how it can be the church. I suppose you could argue the hidden church, but even that is difficult. Even then, this interpretation is a stretch, considering none of us has washed our robes perfectly. At this point in my life, I don’t see how anyone is going to avoid “purgatory”. None (that I know of) of us reaches a state of perfection in this life…
One thing I don’t quite understand, and I am not sure if I can put it into words. But many people believe that Jesus did for them what they cannot do. Hence, because they cannot be perfect, they don’t even really have to try, because Jesus did it. That is the prevailing thought in western Christianity. Sure, it isn’t stated so bluntly by them, but that is the basic message. It is almost as if western Christianity has created a bit of a fairy tale which goes like this:
“We are terrible human beings. We cannot hope to be good. However, we can believe in Jesus and he can impute his righteousness on our behalf. Now, in order to be a ‘good’ Christian, we should server God fully and every Sunday you will hear sermons of how you don’t live up to God’s standard, can’t live up to his standard, but should continue to try harder. But don’t worry, your salvation is secure because you believe that I did it for you. Also, for those don’t believe the gospel like this, they are destined for Hell”
I guess I don’t see that message anywhere in the Bible. I do see in the Bible that we are imperfect, fall short of God’s glory and that our God is ready and eager to forgive our transgressions when we forsake them. I see where he wants us to ‘learn’ that evil is truly evil and the good is truly good. That we will see from our own experience that he is right. He set up the laws of the universe, the main law that we reap what we sow. When we realize this law and see how it isn’t divine retribution, but our own choices falling upon us, we learn from those experiences that God was right and we were wrong. Sometimes we are slow learners and have the learn the same lesson multiple times. Perhaps we never learn a certain lesson in this life time… God setup the universe so that a baby is born, he grows up learns to walk, talk… learns from his mistakes. It just makes it all seem to me like we are all children of God and he shows us a glimpse of how he handles things by allowing us to partake in our own mini-worlds of our own, called our family. But, for God to wipe out our sin nature in an instant does nothing to prove our faithfulness. In fact, it is only when we continue to make the right choices while facing huge temptation that we be said to have ANY integrity at all. To remove the sin nature when we die is akin to removing our trials, in my opinion. Hence, I don’t think the trials stop when we die… Purgatory for everyone.
This lines up with Rev 22:14-15 in my opinion. When we wash our robes, when we finally have hit full maturity, we will ‘arrive’ in our perfected state which will be pure bliss and joy, because we will be one with the Father.
Thank you for your replies.
Rev 21v1 mentions a new heaven and a new earth. this means that in the new creation some will be dwelling on earth and others in the new Jerusalem. As far as I am aware, our ECT friends have always held to this belief. They would also concur that the gates are open for the blessed to walk in and out.
My understanding is that, from the text, the vision ends at the beginning of ch. 22 - John is shown a pure river then in verse 6 we have indication of the end of the vision where it says:
(a repeat of Ch1v1),
Jesus is then talking to John and says v12 “Behold I come quickly…v14 Blessed are those who do his commandments… and may enter through the gates into the city”
From my perspective the verses around v14 are back in ‘real time’ (John’s day) and this is reinforced where the same sentiment is repeated in v20 “I come quickly…” I find it a bit of a stretch to suggest that v14 (which interestingly has radically different translations) is in ‘future eschatological time’ yet v20,21 back to ‘real time’.
Any further ideas/replies welcomed
I thinks there’s some evidence that the vision doesn’t end until Rev. 22:17. Here’s a portion of my review of Francis Chan’s Erasing Hell
, where I discuss Rev. 22:17 and 8 other verses that I believe support post-mortem salvation opportunities:
WHO IS THE BRIDE TALKING TO? – “The Spirit AND THE BRIDE say ‘Come!’” (Rev. 22:17a) – The bride is the church, and is in the New Jerusalem in Rev. 22. So who is the bride’s “Come!” appeal addressed to? The setting continues to be the Rev. 21-22 new heaven/new earth age, since verse 22:17c refers to the “water of life,” which was introduced in Rev. 22:1, and it’s the Rev. 21-22 bride who is speaking – not the “church” or the “lampstands.” Verse 22:17c appears to rule out Christ as being the verse 22:17a addressee, since it asks “all who are thirsty” to “Come.” The unavoidable conclusion, it seems to me, is that by process of elimination, it must be addressed to those in the Lake of Fire, located outside the city gates (Rev. 22:15), which never close (Rev. 21:25).
Here’s the full review:
Okay, it may not be “the church” as we know it. But it may be the perfected church, the manifestation of the sons of God, those who share in the “out of resurrection” (See possible explanation below).
Yes, there seems to be a difference in “The body of Christ” and “The bride (or wife) of Christ”. In human terms, there is a great distinction between my body and my wife (in spite of the fact that we are “one flesh”).
What is certain is that the New Jerusalem is not a literal city somewhere up in the sky which comes down, a city with streets of Gold to which Christians go after death. As for the “out of resurrection”, consider Paul’s words in the following amazing passage:
But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. (Philp 3:7-12 ESV)
The word for “resurrection” in the underlined phrase is not the usual word. It is “εξαναστασις” (exanastasis). This word is found nowhere else in the New Testament. The whole phrase literally means “the out of the resurrection out of the dead”.
Now surely, in order to be raised from death, it is not necessary to come to that ultimate state to which Paul had not yet attained when he wrote this, for all will be raised from death, some to the resurrection of life and others to the resurrection of judgment. But surely Paul would have been raised to the resurrection of life had he died on the day in which he wrote this. Yet he longed to attain the “the out of the resurrection out of the dead”. My guess is that this will be a group of overcomers who will be a subset of the many disciples or Christians who will be raised out of death to the resurrection of life. They will be raised “out of” this group. Perhaps it is they who will comprise “the bride of Christ” symbolized by John’s vision of the New Jerusalem.
“The Spirit AND THE BRIDE say ‘Come!’” (Rev. 22:17a) – The bride is the church, and is in the New Jerusalem in Rev. 22. So who is the bride’s “Come!” appeal addressed to? The setting continues to be the Rev. 21-22 new heaven/new earth age, since verse 22:17c refers to the “water of life,” which was introduced in Rev. 22:1, and it’s the Rev. 21-22 bride who is speaking – not the “church” or the “lampstands.” Verse 22:17c appears to rule out Christ as being the verse 22:17a addressee, since it asks “all who are thirsty” to “Come.” The unavoidable conclusion, it seems to me, is that by process of elimination, it must be addressed to those in the Lake of Fire, located outside the city gates (Rev. 22:15), which never close (Rev. 21:25).
Yes this scenerio is after the open gates and seems to be an invitation to anyone who wants to drink from the water of life. If this section of Revelation is sequential then this is persuasive for CU.
Thanks for all your help. The whole book of Revelation seems to mean all sorts of things to all sorts of people. With your help, at least I can see the possible interpretation suggested. If I say I’m open to both possibilities then at least that’s progress I suppose. Thanks for all your help. Maybe I’m close to Gabe in view.
Quest - I also found your reviews to give food for thought cheers.