The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Open Theism: is it true, possible or biblical?

I thought it might be better not to respond. It just hadn’t occurred to me that the Roman invasion A.D. 70 would be your solution to everything. I should have realized it since you have repeatedly used it previously.

I just think that is such a far-out “solution,” that I haven’t taken it seriously.

Have you ever read Josephus’ works “The Wars of the Jews”? It was very simple. Rome got along fine with the Jews until the zealots began making guerilla attacks against the Romans. Then the Romans responded. In Josephus’ history of the Rome’s attack on the Jews and the destruction of their temple, he did not state that this destruction was God’s punishment of the Jews. .

Have I ever read Josephus… more to the point with your comment above, have you? :thinking:

Would you even believe me if I provided you hard evidence that Josephus HAD INDEED said God was actively present in those calamitous times… OH WAIT what’s this?

Antiquities of the Jews 20:8:5
And this seems to me to have been the reason why God, out of his hatred of these men’s wickedness, rejected our city: and as for the temple, he no longer esteemed it sufficiently pure for him to inhabit therein: but brought the Romans upon us, and threw a fire upon the city to purge it; and brought upon us our wives and children slavery: as desirous to make us wiser by our calamities.

War of the Jews 5:1:3
And now, “O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred? For thou couldest be no longer a place fit for God; nor couldest thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thy own people; and hadst made the holy house itself a burying place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.”

There are just way too many other quotes in kind… you were saying!? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Since you presume that I believe only what I want to believe in spite of evidence to the contrary, I well understand why you ask me this. If you knew me better, you would not hold the opinion that you do.

Thank you for the references. I looked them up. I hadn’t previously been aware of them.
Consider me informed.

It’s my understanding that Josephus wrote history the way most folks did back then - more historiography than what we moderns mean by history. And certainly, Josephus didn’t mean that “God was present in those times” was history.

Not to me! When the Romans came against Jerusalem in 70 A.D. there was none of the deliverance that Zechariah describes:

Then the Lord will go out and fight against those NATIONS, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day HIS FEET will stand on the Mount of Olives , east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be SPLIT IN TWO from east to west, forming a great valley… On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. It will be a unique day —a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When EVENING comes, there will be LIGHT….On that day LIVING WATER will flow out from Jerusalem , half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter. The Lord will be king over the WHOLE EARTH. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. 16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
Zech. 14.

In addition to Revelation 20, various Old Testament passages like this one predict a coming time on this earth that is better than this current age, yet not as perfect as eternity. Futurists recognize a Millennial Age after the Second Coming of Jesus but before eternity.

Qaz, you are minimizing the literal as merely figurative hyperbole in Zechariah. For example, the Mount of Olives has not yet split under Jesus’ feet at his return! There is no living water yet flowing out of Jerusalem!

And the things that Jesus talked about in the Olivet Discourse did not take place in 70 AD, except for the destruction of Herod’s temple. For instance, in 70 AD, Matthew 24:21 was NOT fulfilled: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor EVER shall be.

The disciples whom Jesus addresses in the Olivet Discourse would have had some confusion, which would be resolved over time, even after their time.

Similarly, the Pharisees were confused about prophecy when they rejected Jesus. “Part A” messianic prophecies showed Messiah as a suffering servant. “Part B" messianic prophecies showed Messiah as a conquering king. But they chose to fixate on Part B prophecies, and could not recognize the truth that the Messiah had come to them as a lowly sacrificial lamb first, and only later would come again like a roaring lion to rescue his people.

There is a principle of interpretation which must be recognized here: many prophecies, including the Olivet Discourse, are written directly to the people who will be living when the prophecy is fulfilled.

Jeremiah said, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen.” Revelation later repeats it, applying it to a city that has still not yet been rebuilt.

Paul used this principle when he wrote, “Then we [meaning “those”] which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured].” Paul was conforming to a practice of putting the prophecy in the words of the people who will be living when the time comes.

Paul knew that, for himself, the Second Coming was not imminent, as for instance, he also says, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin [Antichrist] be revealed, the son of perdition.”

Malachi 3 tells of the physical, undeniable, and therefore yet future, Second Coming of Christ:

1 …And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple…
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire
And like launderers’ soap.

Not figurative. Literal.

When the temple is rebuilt, it will clear up a lot of confusion!

Consider this recent news story from Israel, “Sanhedrin Urges Candidates for Jerusalem Mayor to Prepare for Third Temple," casually discussing the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem:

Jerusalem will have a new mayor next week and more than any other election this year will decide the religious nature of Israel’s capital. The nascent Sanhedrin has addressed a letter to the two [mayoral] candidates emphasizing the role of the Third Temple in municipal current policy.

The Sanhedrin has already begun working toward this end, holding full-dress reenactments of the Temple service before the Biblical feasts. Another glorious example of this was the World Creation Concert held the week before Rosh Hashana, which several representatives from South American countries attended.

The Sanhedrin emphasized that the city will change WHEN the Temple is built, requiring massive improvements to its infrastructure.

…“With God’s merciful approval, one of you will be chosen as head of the city, may it be built and made ready for its ultimate purpose,” the Sanhedrin wrote. “We call on the candidates as well as the voters to make choices based on truth and on the main aspect of Jerusalem, which is the building of the Temple.”

The Sanhedrin wrote a similar letter to U.S. President Donald Trump after he won the election, calling on him to take a role in building the Third Temple just as Persian King Cyrus helped the Jews build the Second Temple after the Babylonian exile in the sixth century BCE.

Wittgenstein has made a compelling case for the truth that the meaning of words must be determined not by their dictionary meaning, but by their use in their various cultural language games. This poses grave problems for the issues of open theism and universalism, for which one must cope with the frequently inprecise use of “all” and other general terms applied to the scope of salvation. The ancient Jewish penchant for Semitic hyperbole also often sabotages the quest for meaning.

For open theism, one must face the fact that the cited biblical prooftexts cited in favor of omniscience and omnipotence can’t be forced into a modern precise philosophical mode and can’t be divorced from frequent biblical comments about divine regret and repentance.

Also, OT scholars recognize this OT teaching that proves problematic for the anti-open theism camp: at creation God brought order out of chaos, but the OT never teaches that God masters the forces of chaos. Thus, we can’t claim on biblical grounds that God micro-manages the application of the laws of the universe. Thus, for example, Ecclesiastes 9:11 can lament, “All are victims of time and chance.”

Perhaps, the same chaotic forces that govern biological evolution also govern the nature and development of the afterlife territories and inded the nature of God Himself. The fact that God evolves and is thus in perpetual flux is the decisive reason why He continually creates! And no, the biblical declaration, “I am the Lord; I change not,” does not refute such a claim.

Your first sentence was pretty good. I’ve read a LOT by and about LW.
'Modern precise philosophical mode", unfortunately, is none of those things. Analytical philosophers admit that at the end of the day, NO truly philosophical problem has been solved; human intelligence has been pushed to its limits, mainly by problems of essence and Being. The most exacting, precision language uncovers what language will never solve.
“We can’t be certain of anything” is itself self-contradictory.

Your post was seriously provocative and too condensed - but that is a problem with Forums, typically.

All unrepentant Israel will finally repent and be saved at the Second Coming of Christ:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.” Romans 11:25-26.

As earlier promised here:

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me [Jesus], the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child [i.e, recognize and repent], and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Zech. 12:3, 10.

During the Millennial Age, Jewish festivals will be celebrated in Israel, and commemorative/memorial sacrifices will be offered at the Temple in Jerusalem:

“These I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.” Isaiah 56:7.

“‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: The gate of the inner court facing east is to be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day and on the day of the New Moon it is to be opened. 2 The prince is to enter from the outside through the portico of the gateway and stand by the gatepost. The priests are to sacrifice his burnt offering and his fellowship offerings.

"The man brought me back to the entrance to the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar.
Ezekiel 46:1-2, 47:1.

During the Millennial Age, longevity will increase:

“Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. Isaiah 65:20.

During the Millennial Age, the animal kingdom will be healed:

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. Isaiah 11:6.

The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. Isaiah 65:25.

At the end of the Millennial Age, the devil will be released from the abyss for a short time, before being thrown into the lake of fire:

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison….And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. Revelation 20:7, 10.

(Plus, Qaz, what do you think of the prophetic significance of the future rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem?)

But what would you say if Josephus really did think that (him being a Jew) God was at work? Your point about historiography is suspect and means I am leaving the conversation to those more adept than me. Yo… maybe your (or for that part my) understanding might not be the way it was?
Good luck.

How would J KNOW that, though?
And happily there ARE more adept people than me. Who give reasons for these things. If I had to rely on myself, God help me…

Well, regardless of whether what Josephus wrote be framed as ‘history’ or ‘historiography’ the texts ARE clear… he who wrote such actually DID believe God was actively present in said events.

Well he’s entitled to his interpretation, naturally…

And that’s just it… interpretation OR otherwise Josephus DID attribute the conflagrations of those days TO GOD — whether one agrees or for whatever reason disagrees with Josephus is redundant; which is WHY I brought clarification to Paidion’s errant claim that… “he did not state that this destruction was God’s punishment of the Jews.” Well YES he did, and just to be clear check this…

War of the Jews 6:2:1
And are not both the city, and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans; and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions.”

I’m not arguing anything here.Did God do as Josephus stated? Is that the correct interpretation of the events? How would I know? How did he?
So I take it with a grain of salt…that’s all.

Well Dave… given you’re not arguing anything here and so maybe(??) have no dog in the fight, then possibly you could with your open mind ask yourself… in light of what Jesus warned HIS PEOPLE (Mt24, Mk13, Lk17, 21) would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw such an interpretive realisation that… THIS, i.e., the DoJ was THAT of which Jesus prophesied? — OR, to take a leaf out of a reasonably favoured scholar of yours, aka Tom Wright, the answer would be a resounding YES!!

“One of the main reasons, I suppose, why the obvious way of reading the chapter has been ignored for so long must be the fact that in a good deal of Christian theology the fall of Jerusalem has had no theological significance. This has meant not only that Mark 13 is found puzzling, but also that all the references to the same event elsewhere in the gospels – even where it stares one in the face, as in Luke 13:1-5 – have been read as general warnings of hellfire in an afterlife, rather than the literal and physical divine-judgment-through-Roman-judgment that we have seen to be characteristic of Jesus’ story.” ( Jesus and Victory of God , pp. 343-344. Fortress Press, 1996).

Sounds straightforward enough to me.
I do hold to a future ‘second coming’, however…as does TW.

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With regards to dispensational delusions on Zechariah 14… attached is a PDF which wipes the floor of such notions. It is written by partial prêterist aka futurist Gary DeMar from his book ‘Last Days Madness’ — I can recommend this eye-opening book. Zechariah 14 and The Coming of Christ.pdf (85.7 KB)

I’ve read that book and it made some very good points.
I happen to be listening right now to this: (which is a vindication of the future 2nd coming)

Part of it is & the part is not, I think about verse 35 on is about the second coming.