The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Opinions on this article please?

Hi Dick

Am currently off work, feeling ill and extremely sorry for myself. Both my wife and I have been laid low by a flu-ey type virus. She’s still in bed, but I’ve got up to make myself a cup of tea and have a quick look on the forum.

I read the article you posted the other day on David and Jonathan. My honest response is that I think the author goes too far in asserting that the Bible definitely affirms their homosexual relationship. But I don’t know enough about Jewish culture of the time to know for sure. Can you fill me on some context, perhaps?

All the very best from a sickly, self-pitying Brit :frowning: :slight_smile:

Johnny

Johnny - sorry about that. Wish you speedy recovery. Have to go out to work now - btu will get back to you. :slight_smile:

Well Johnny –

Yes I’ve seen an American Rainbow Alliance website page that breezily gives the passages from Kings about the love of David and Jonathan as incontrovertible proof that they were a gay couple (presumably in the modern sense). I speak as a complete non-expert, but think like you that I can safely say that this is pressing things a bit too far.

However, from the Wiki article that I posted I note that the contrary argument is that David and Jonathan’s love was ‘purely Platonic’. This is to use the term ‘Platonic love’ very loosely. The term comes from Plato’s Symposium where the Eros/desire born of ‘poverty and hunger’ that is celebrated is homoerotic. It begins in the love of one man for the physical beauty of another and then the desire transcends it immediate object as it awakens a desire for the Eternal Form of Beauty in a Platonic heaven. Now the desire that David and Jonathan express for each other certainly seems of an intensity that is rooted in erotic longing – whether or not it was physically consummated or not is impossible to say; but its erotic basis seems clear to me and this does not seem to embarrass the author of Kings. As far as I know the only sin of the flesh for which David is really held accountable is the indirect murder of Uriah the Hittite so that he can have access to Uriah’s wife. Otherwise David’s sensuality is not censured, including the tragic-comic detail of Abishag the Shulamite maid snuggling up to the ageing King to revivify him – although sadly he is impotent and near death. Of course, in the rewrite of this history, in the Book of Chronicles, David’s sensual abandon is toned down (and Abishag is written out of the story).
It seems to me that the author of Kings is not embarrassed to speak of homoerotic passions that centre on honour and the loyalty of comrades in arms (that are not hard to come by in the poetry of warriors in most cultures). I can’t imagine any puritan fundamentalist today celebrating the love of comrades in such terms – because they would fear being in breach of Leviticus and of standing under the judgement of Sodom.

Some will argue that this is to misunderstand the cultural context – in these times men were far more comfortable showing emotion together. Well that’s true in a way, and it’s still true in the middle east today (and in other cultures that are strong on machismo)– where men kiss each other full on the mouth as a greeting in some countries, and walk down the road hand in hand together without thinking they are gay. But in cultures where women are confined to the private sphere – as David’s wives and concubines would have been – the whole concept of homosexuality is different it seems. Men who do have physical relationships don’t necessarily consider they are gay – so long as they are married (and don’t consider themselves in breach of Divine command, so long as they don’t have full sex – everything else is OK).

I once read an essay by James Alison in which he claimed that the modern concept of the gay man – out of the closet –has much to do with the feminisation of the work place. Now women are in the public sphere they use their ‘gaydar’ intuition to discern men’s sexuality by weighing up the response of individual men to them as women. Perhaps he’s got a point – this may well be a big reason for the shift towards openness and emotional intelligence regarding gay relationships.

Yes, I can see why gay men could see the love of David and Jonathan as affirmation of the love they have together (however different the context may be). I can see that the fact that the love of David and Jonathan is bonded in loyalty and honour might also be important as an affirmation.

Any thoughts? (and hope you are feeling a bit less groggy)

Dick

Just to say that trying to see both/all sides of this one is hard for me too. I’ve looked dilligently at information giving different perspectives on the issue. And some of the stuff really gets me down. I know that at least one very intelligent and gentle Christian in the Church of England – Richard Holloway former Bishop of Edinburgh – actually lost his faith though too much exposure to Christian rage against gay people; and I can understand this having looked at the following site today on which some Christians give their responses to some thoughts of ex-President Jimmy Carter’s -

theblaze.com/stories/jimmy-c … -about-it/

Greetings, Dick

The Blaze is run by one Glenn Beck, an ultra-conservative media personality who proved to be too whacked in the head even for the FOX News Channel of Rupert Murdoch/Roger Ailes. He is a darling only of the most extreme of the extreme American right. IMO, hatred, innuendo and even outright falsehood are virtually the only currencies he trades in and are the sole source of his fame and fortune, such as it is. He is widely considered a self-aggrandizing megalomaniac of the first degree.

Sadly, the views expressed by commenters on that website are indeed representative of a small segment of our population. Yet, happily, the vile commentary you see there is, I believe, profoundly offensive and definitively repugnant to the great majority of Americans, including most Christians who would label themselves as conservative.

I know it is heartbreaking to read such vitriol emanating from some who claim to have Jesus Christ living within them. It just bears remembering that the Internet has a deceptive way of amplifying even the faintest sounds.

Blessings to you, friend!

Andy

I personally don’t give a flip what a ‘organized religion that calls itself a church’ thinks about Homosexual marriages, it doesn’t matter because those are men’s opinions just like anyone else. They are not an authority, never will be any longer to those who recognize what is true in Grace and Love.

Hurm… looks like this thread has gone dormant… :neutral_face:

I was gonna say, I recently came across a couple books that you guys might find interesting…

The first is called Wonderfully, Fearfully Made by Fr. Robert L. Aprin, a gay Catholic priest who contracted AIDS…

The second is called Pastor, I Am Gay by Howard Bass, an American Baptist minister who is open and accepting of gays…

Just thought you guys (i.e. Prof) may want to give them a look. :slight_smile:

Blessings and hopefully we can get this thread going again, if it’s meant to. :slight_smile:

Matt

Hi Matt - I’m just having a bit of a summer break from posting (apart from anything else I’ve got very strained eyes :open_mouth: at the moment so want to go easy on them :unamused:). Will return soon and wish you and all here (Bret, Eric, Sass, Andy, Anthony etc - in no particular order - a wonderful summer (I do have some more stuff to post here later which may get the conversation started again)

love

Dick (The Pseudo Prof) :slight_smile:

P.S. I heard a good Jewish joke the other day…