The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Opinions on this article please?

Studies Articles
#1

Hey guys, I subscribe on Facebook to a fellow named John Shore. I enjoy some of his pieces, others not so much, but ultimately he just has fun stuff to read, I like how he writes, just not always WHAT he writes. But, this seems to be a pretty controversial point in Christianity, and in religion in general. The treatment of, and opinions about, Gays, lesbians, transexuals, bisexuals. Check out his article, and check out his blog, I think it’s worth seeing his opinions, and then share your own, I’d like to hear everyone’s ideas on the matter.
Link to the article:

huffingtonpost.com/john-shore/christians-should-affirm-same-sex-relationships-are-not-immoral_b_1457458.html

Link to his blog:
johnshore.com/

So the main topic of most of his discussions is based around Gay marriage, as that’s the main problem people have with someone being gay, besides them obviously abhorring the fact that they’re gay.

So to start this potential whirlwind off right, I’ll share MY opinion on it. My perspective is based on my findings in the Bible, at least how I UNDERSTAND THEM. Yes, sex between a man and a man is considered against the laws handed down to Moses by God, fully understood. I don’t think anybody questions that. By definition then, that would make a gay person a “sinner”. Ok, noted. But… aren’t we all? Wasn’t that Jesus’ entire purpose for coming, to save sinners? Therefore, if I want to take a Biblical standpoint on homosexuality, I am supposed to LOVE the sinner, but hate the sin. And we, as Christians, are directed to treat each other fairly and lovingly right? ESPECIALLY the sinners, which is what Jesus did. So the people on the street corner holding signs that read “GOD HATES FAGS” (in my opinion, condemn me if you will) are not Christians at all, because Christians are taught not to be hateful towards the person, but the sin itself. On top of that, it doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible that God hates fags… it says he abhors the act of a man lying with another man as with a woman. Two different things. My standpoint: Love them anyway, accept them, even lovingly counsel them and pray for them; but DO NOT bully them, hate them, shun them, judge them (as it’s not your place), persecute them, ridicule them or segregate them. It’s against what we’re taught.

I realize this isn’t much of a perspective on the marriage aspect of it, but it’s a standpoint on homosexuality in general. Alright… let the discussion commence!

#2

Hi. I wrote a couple of paragraphs giving my opinion…I’ve decided it would be wiser not to weigh in and am deleting my comments…I’ll just say that I have no problem with gay people, I’ve known and loved a few very much. I lost one to suicide and I may be a bit biased based on that fact…Sass.

#3

Oh dear. Tim, we have tried this conversation before. You have opened a can of snakes! :slight_smile: I might engage with the article and this question better later, but I am one of those people who will strongly question that “by definition then, that would make a gay person a ‘sinner’.” Moses does not define sin.

#4

Yes, this has been a sensitive topic. We do have members on this forum who are homosexual and there have been hurt feelings as a result of past discussions. It might surprise you Tim, some people do argue that homosexuality is not a sin – I really haven’t looked into that at all, so I can’t say anything one way or another about that. Since it’s not something I personally have to deal with, I guess I just haven’t been motivated enough to get into it.

I haven’t read the article yet, but I think you hit at the heart of the issue – that is we are supposed to treat everyone with love.

I also think of how often we are told not to judge – that it’s really none of our business to judge another.

Paul writes in Romans 14:10 “Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.”

Jesus says in Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

And James writes in James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Sometimes Christians are quick to point out certain sins and consider them worse than others, but as James wrote, if at any point we break the law we are guilty. Therefore if we want to receive mercy, we ought to extend that same mercy to others.

Judgment is God’s realm, because we just don’t have wisdom and love enough to know how to judge properly, for the good of the other.

That’s not very specific to homosexuality, but I think the general principal applies. Rather than pronouncing condemnation and rejection, we should be trying not to put a stumbling block in front of anyone, and encouraging them to seek God, love others, and be a disciple of Christ. If someone is doing something wrong, we can trust the Spirit of God to reveal that to them.

Sonia

#5

Yeah, and I kinda figured this would be a can of snakes, haha. It’s a sensitive thing for me as well, as I have a cousin who is in a same sex relationship, a marriage actually, and the things I’ve seen them go through are just ridiculous. And I would refer to it as a sin because of how it is put in Leviticus 18:22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable." That SUGGESTS sin to me, but I didn’t write the Bible, so that may be an inaccurate interpretation. Not sure if it was taken as an offense, but I truly meant no offense.

#6

This has been my whole thing. I see so many “Christians” protesting and slandering and judging these people for making a life choice with their God-given free will, and that just seems like it’s DIRECTLY against what they’re supposed to believe.

#7

Remember that this is the Law of Moses, it was not written by God, but by a murderer who destroyed what supposedly written by God (on his own word without the presence of two or three witnesses), and who himself never entered the Promise Land.

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the Law? And yet not one of you keeps the Law. [If that is the truth] why do you seek to kill Me [for not keeping it]?

John 8:17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.

John 10:34 Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods?

Acts 6:12-14 They incited the people as well as the elders and the scribes, and they came upon Stephen and arrested him and took him before the council (Sanhedrin). And they brought forward false witnesses who asserted, This man never stops making statements against this sacred place and the Law [of Moses]; For we have heard him say that this Jesus the Nazarene will tear down and destroy this place, and will alter the institutions and usages which Moses transmitted to us.

etc.

#8

:slight_smile:

#9

Once we recognize that the Law of Moses was not the Divine Law of God, but a Law written for a particular people and that Jesus, the disciples, the apostles etc. we condemned over and over again for not keeping the Law of Moses because they never accepted it as God’s Law in the first place. Then we can start talking about what God thinks versus what Moses thought concerning the subject. :wink:

#10

@Bret: Thank you so much for your kind words. It’s a funny thing about the gay men I’ve known: There is such a sweet vulnerability about them that I just find so beautiful and pure. Plus, they are fabulous! :slight_smile: You seem just like that to me. Thank you for mentioning William. When I found UR, he was the second person I told after my husband. He believed it right away…He was the ONLY person who believed it that I told and he still is. Not only that, he SAW it. Struck him like a bolt of lightening just like it did me. He was an agnostic/backslidden Christian before that. Soon after, things took a turn in his life, many of his friends moved away, his sister, who was my best friend, turned from him to “serve the Lord”, but in a very harsh, extreme fundamentalist way…She pretty much dropped him altogether and it broke his heart. He was just so, so sad and alone. I think he sought solace in things that only hurt him more. I saw him as much as I could, called and checked up on him, but I was a married mom of 3 and there was only so much I could do. He sent me an e-mail thanking me for my friendship, for introducing him to the REAL Christ and telling me he was a rich man now because of that. Then, he took his own life. It will be 7 years next month. Anyway, I’m bumming you out. :blush: It’s a pleasure making your aquantance, Bret. God bless you…

#11

Oh man, I’m so sorry I couldn’t find a lighter note to end that on…Duuur! :laughing: Blessings, brother!

#12

I have deleted my original post as I’d like to stay out of this conversation. :slight_smile:

#13

Oh yeah, you can PM me dude. That’d be great.

#14

The recently published “Paul on Homosexuality” by Michale Wood, paulonhomosexuality.com/ is a breakthrough in demonstrating a correct historical and exegetical understanding of the biblical stance on homosexuality, especially Paul’s take on it. Wood has used the latest findings by scholars, delved from the thousands of 1st century Koine Greek papyri recovered in the early 20th century in Egypt, to reveal the correct meaning of keywords that have been inaccurately translated in English bible translations. In a nutshell, all of the overblown condemnation of homosexual relationships that many christian denominations get all bent out of shape over is a red herring.

#15

Aren’t the 10 commandments what were handed down to Moses too? Without witnesses? Are they invalid? I probably didn’t word my statement right, or thoroughly enough, I don’t necessarily think that the Law of Moses is THE final standard, far from it to be honest. I simply used it as a reference point to cite how this entire philosophy could’ve sprung up, resulting in millions of Christians judging and hating people for being gay. If I were going to pick the most blatant, literal point in the Bible people could’ve taken this way of thinking from, it would be from that passage, that’s all. Sorry for the confusion.

#16

Yes, that includes the 10 Commandments. The Law of Moses is equivalent to any sovereign nations legal system, drawn up by men to rule and order the society in which these laws were drawn. It is separated into several sections, from criminal, moral, ethical, etc. rules and regulations. They are not God’s laws as much as the US constitution is God’s Law, (though there will be many people who say that the US constitution is God’s Law, these men are fools as well)

Galatians 3:17-18
This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void. or if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise.

Colossians 2:18-23
Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions [he claims] he has seen, vainly puffed up by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit,(who do think Paul was talking about: Moses)And not holding fast to the Head, from Whom the entire body, supplied and knit together by means of its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. (Moses did not enter the promise land.)

If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world’s crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? [Why do you submit to rules and regulations?—such as] Do not handle [this], Do not taste [that], Do not even touch [them], (sound familiar? The Law including the 10 Commandments)Referring to things all of which perish with being used. To do this is to follow human precepts and doctrines. Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh.]

Essentially, Paul just told you that the Law of Moses, with it’s 10 Commands along with the other laws (kosher, ceremonial, moral) also known as the Law, are HUMAN PRECEPTS AND DOCTRINES.

#17

I highly recommend reading Michael Wood’s research. It was the first explanation that liberated me from my ambivalence on this subject.

For a long time I had a rather hands-off policy: for myself, there was no need to concern myself with the subject since I’m not gay; and in dealing with others, all would be ultimately reconciled to God and it wasn’t for me to judge.

But I was still uncomfortable. On the one hand, I’d hear comments from Christians I know about the wrongness of homosexuality, and it was hard to refute them. On the other hand, why would anyone choose the scandal and inconvenience of being gay if they could be content with being with the opposite sex; also, they seemed to suffer more rejection, more exclusion, more bullying and assaults than comparable people who were straight – and that seemed to put them in a place closer to Jesus, not further away.

What Wood does is address the apparent biblical prohibition in a careful way, rather than appeal to emotion (which would leave people like me just where we started).

Sure, but detestable to whom?

There are plenty of things that are “detestable” in Leviticus that no-one cares about one iota: I don’t see angst-filled discussions on how to treat a farmer who plants two crops together; or what to do when we notice a garment made of more than one type of fibre.

What I have learned from Wood on this subject has had an effect on me consistent with the message of Jesus: I can literally breathe easier, it is a huge relief, a liberation – much more than I could have anticipated, and it takes the attention off what we do, and puts it onto what he did/does.

#18

OH exactly, I fully agree Ruth. There are things that people just don’t care about at all. I was using this verse to offer a point of reference to where people with big problems with it might be building this idea from. The long and short of it is that Jesus taught unconditional love, period. Gay, straight, black, white, yellow, pink, purple, whatever, just love them. And the idea in Leviticus is that the things that are detestable are detestable to God. But I don’t really think anyone of us are truly capable of making that statement. He is all knowing, all powerful and the final judge. He will decide, and nobody else. If he chooses to forgive ANY OF US, FOR ANY CRIME, then it’s up to him. He is just, righteous and loving.

#19

Tim, I think that homosexuality is just one of thousands of ways in which Sin-containing human nature can show itself. Another way is fornication and abortion, for examples.

For me, homosexuality is not sin like fornication is not sin but, in fact, one of many manifestations of Sin contained in the human genome.

Sin is not or, at least, not primarily about bad actions but about unbelief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, as the Teacher of God’s mind to human beings. So, atheism and being atheistic are sins, whereas homosexuality and fornication are not.

Sin started at the beginning with disobedience to God and the action, which showed that this disobedience was taking place, was fairly unimportant. What I mean is that the act of eating a fruit from a tree was unimportant in and of itself. What was important was the disobedience that was constructed into that simple act of eating some fruit.

If God had said, “You can eat that fruit!” then the act of eating some fruit would be just as insignificant as eating the fruit when God had previously said, “You shall not eat that fruit!” The act is identical in both situations but it is the prior instruction of God and one’s faith or unbelief in that instruction which is paramount.

So, a homosexual is not sinning more than a fornicator when he lives, for example, as an atheist. It is the atheism which is the sin and the sinning, whilst the sexual proclivity is the manifestation, regardless of whether it is homosexuality or heterosexuality, of the sin which is already going on as dislike, hatred, unbelief in God the Father and in his Son Jesus Christ.

So, if someone is kind to a homosexual, then he or she should be kind to a heterosexual and vice versa. If someone is kind to an atheist, he or she should be kind to this atheist regardless of whether they are homosexual or heterosexual.

The NT condemns fornicators more often and more frequently than it does homosexuals. Maybe because there are so many more fornicators and so many more acts of fornication.

#20

I heard someone say one time that they could not judge a person for committing a sin that they themselves had never been tempted with. I’ve committed most, if not all that I have been tempted with.