Hi Sass
Thanks for your trenchant comments on this thread. As I said earlier, I am apprehensive that we are starting to get into deep waters here. And I’m not a very good swimmer … (Can’t find an emoticon for ‘somewhat apprehensive irony’. Never mind.)
You make so many points I wish to comment on. But I will restrict myself to just a few, for now.
But before I do, I think it only polite and politic to issue a warning to anybody coming to this thread anew, that they may find some of the things I will be discussing offensive. If frank talk about human sexuality offends you, perhaps you might want to give this post a miss.
So, into the minefield we plunge. Heaven help us.
1. Am I a bigot if I speak out against homosexuality?
Wikipedia defines a bigot as “a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own or intolerant of people of different political views, ethnicity, race, class, religion, profession, sexuality or gender”.
Well, I guess that makes me a bigot. I am utterly intolerant of all sorts of opinions and political views – fascism, racism, homophobia and Calvinism are four that trip off the tongue. I’m also resolutely intolerant of people who traffic women for sex, or abuse children, or carry out ethnic cleansing, for example. And I don’t feel in the least bit guilty or ashamed feeling that way. In fact I feel pretty good about it. Because I believe that there are absolute, objective standards of right and wrong, which come from God. And I believe that all the things I’m bigoted about transgress those standards.
Some supposedly more enlightened thinkers will tell me I’m wrong, that there are no objective moral standards – only those we make for ourselves in our societies. Personally I think that’s bunkum. I think moral relativism is a dangerous fiction, and even those people who profess to believe in it probably spend most of their lives doing their best to live up to the absolute Judeo-Christian moral standards they claim don’t really exist.
There are particular minority human behaviours (eg the polygamous subjugation of very young women as practised by Warren Jeffs) which pretty much everybody outside of the minority in question (in this case Jeffs and a few of the elders of his ‘church’) are instinctively repulsed by. Jeffs might feel justified in calling me a bigot because I’m intolerant of his opinion that he ought to be allowed to sleep with all the young women in his church. But everybody else would probably just tell him to stop being such a creep. And send him to prison. Hooray.
My point is that we’re all bigots, judged by somebody or other’s standards. Bigotry *per se *isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
But is there a type of bigotry that is unacceptable? And if so, how do we define that? To cut to the chase, if we speak out against homosexuality, does that make us ‘bad’ bigots? Are fundamentalist Christians ever justified in singling out gay people for condemnation? Does the fact that they (the fundies) are acting out of some misguided concern that gay people are going to burn in hell justify their bigotry?
The answer, surely, must be no.
Even if we accept that homosexuality is a sin (which I do not), we are nevertheless commanded by Jesus to love gay people and treat them just the same as we do straight people. Far right fundies don’t do that. They campaign to deny gays the same basic rights (eg adoption, or marriage, or being a priest) as straights. They vilify gay people in hateful language. Some of them advocate, or even practise, physical violence against gays.
(My brother has been ‘queer bashed’ – beaten up in a pub for no reason other than his being a gay man. I don’t know what the religious beliefs of his attackers were. I wasn’t there to ask them. And had I been there, I doubt I’d have been having discussions about faith with those cowards. But I do know that the anti-gay rhetoric of the Christian Right only legitimises this sort of nastiness.)
But does this mean we should ‘live and let live’, no matter how offensive we perceive other people’s – be they gay or straight – behaviour to be? You mention the Folsom Street Fair and the Hunky Jesus Contest as examples of offensive behaviour, something that you clearly feel you ought to be free to speak out against without being labelled a bigot.
This is a tough one, Sass. And I hope you will think carefully about what I say about it before condemning me for my views. Because personally I do think we should ‘live and let live’. Now that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t speak out against criminal or harmful behaviour – things that oppress or hurt others. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t protect our children from things that have the potential to hurt or deprave or corrupt them. And it doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to find certain types of behaviour offensive. But are we bigots to feel that way?
Perhaps. (See my first point above.)
I might loathe a particular movie, say; and I should be free to voice that loathing – just as those who enjoy the movie should be free to watch it. Freedom of speech cuts both ways. As enshrined in the First Amendment, it is one of the most basic and most important of human rights, wouldn’t you agree? As Voltaire said, “I do not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it”.
From what I’ve gathered through the magic of the internet, Folsom Street is a BDSM festival. BDSM isn’t everybody’s cup of tea, to be sure. But it is surely very popular, practised by both gay and straight people, and as long as it causes no harm, seems to me to be a clear case of ‘live and let live’.
The Hunky Jesus Contest is a different kettle of fish. It is clearly a ‘gay’ thing. And it seems to be a deliberate bit of provocative nose thumbing to the Christian Right from a particularly militant ‘wing’ of the gay community. But should you be allowed to speak out against it freely? Yes, of course. But without being called a bigot? I don’t know. The fact that I happen to agree with you, and find the whole concept highly offensive, doesn’t change the fact that by the standards of those who enjoy the Hunky Jesus Contest, *I *am a bigot.
Now you might argue, as I sort of tried to do earlier, that ‘my’ bigotry is legitimate, because it has the sanction of the Almighty. But the people who attend the Hunky Jesus Contest would, I daresay, reject that argument, most likely because they reject God as well. And why are they rejecting God, we might ask? Is it because they feel rejected, marginalised, or oppressed by Christianity?
And of course, being offensively anti-Christian is by no means the preserve of the gay community. There are any number of straight comedians or writers or rock bands (mainly of the crap heavy metal variety ) whose stock in trade is to mock, ridicule and be offensive about the Christian faith. Try Googling ‘Cradle of Filth Jesus t shirt’ if you want proof. (But be warned, you *will *be offended.)
As for sex in public, well, if it’s illegal, then the cops ought to arrest anybody they catch doing it. Whether it *ought *to be illegal is another debate.
So, on to your second main point I want to discuss –
2. The Gay Agenda and the Gay Manifesto
I’m sorry, but I think this is a total red herring. A couple of clicks on Google will tell you the truth about the so-called ‘Gay Manifesto’. Which is that Michael Swift’s original article, published in *Gay Community News *back in the 80s, is clearly a satire. The religious right have appropriated it as evidence of the so-called ‘Gay Agenda’ through the simple, and utterly dishonest, expedient of quoting it without the sentence that prefaces it:
“This essay is an outré, madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor.”
Read that one line, and everything that comes after becomes clear, pierces right to the heart of the homophobia that has poisoned American society for, one might guess, centuries – decades certainly. Omit it, and you are left with a tasteless rant. I wonder why all those right wing Christian senators and rabble rousers choose the latter course …
Now, I don’t put Michael Swift in the pantheon alongside his more famous, and far more literate, namesake Jonathan – Dean of St Patrick’s Cathedral in 17th and 18th century Dublin, author of Gulliver’s Travels, and a man who has been hailed (on Wikipedia at least) as the greatest ever satirist writing in English. But he is a satirist, in the best iconoclastic tradition of satire.
Jonathan Swift, you may recall, penned the notorious pamphlet popularly known as A Modest Proposal. In it he suggested that poor Irish folk might improve their lot by selling their children as food for rich people. Even today such seemingly bad taste satire might raise an eyebrow; one can only guess at what sort of reaction it elicited from Jonathan’s readers 300 years ago!
So I do not agree that the ‘Gay Manifesto’ is “extraordinarily irresponsible on Swift’s part”. Provocative, yes. Tasteless, perhaps. But irresponsible? Definitely not. The ‘Gay Agenda’ is a myth, pure right wing propaganda, I would say.
So, on to another, perhaps even more tendentious question:
3. Should pro-gay material be taught and allowed in public schools?
Well, that depends on what you mean by “pro-gay”. If you mean material which asserts that a homosexual orientation is preferable to a heterosexual one; if you mean material which teaches that gays are superior to straights; if you mean material which encourages young people, confused about their potential sexual orientation, to ‘choose’ to be gay because being gay is somehow ‘better’ than being straight – then no, pro-gay material should not be taught in schools.
But if by “pro-gay” you mean material which teaches that homosexual orientation (and practice) is just as normal and healthy as heterosexual; which teaches that we should treat gays exactly the same as we treat straights, which teaches that if you are gay, it’s not a sin or crime to be that way, and that you can be gay and also live a completely ‘normal’, happy, Christian life – then yes, pro-gay material should definitely be taught in schools.
For me, all this is actually not tendentious at all, it’s a no-brainer. It’s just basic equality, basic human rights. Basic Christian love.
Your quote about fisting is another red herring, I’m afraid. Okay, so you personally may find certain sexual practices abhorrent. Or at least, you don’t want your children to be taught about them in school. Fair enough. But surely this is a question about sex education generally, not about specifically ‘gay’ sexual practices?
The practice of fisting is, as you make clear in your quote, not confined to gay men or women. Would you, for example, feel equally uncomfortable if your children were taught about blow jobs or cunnilingus at school – practices which, I am quite sure, many faithful, loving, married, heterosexual Christian couples enjoy?
Maybe so. And I would support your right to be that way. As the good and loving parent I’m quite sure you are, you are best placed to know what to tell your kids about sex, and when. But if you accept that children should be taught about sex at school at all, at the appropriate age, then you should not rule out *a priori *discussion of practices that you personally find unacceptable.
(Not that I’m defending fisting, or any particular sexual practice. In truth, fisting sounds rather dangerous and unpleasant to me. But then I’ve never tried it, so what do I know?)
Anyway, Sass, I hope I haven’t offended you by anything I have said here. I *love *your posts, I really value your opinion, and I do actually agree with a lot of what you say. But I also feel very strongly that all forms of prejudice ought to be stamped out as firmly and as quickly as possible – even those we sometimes find ourselves in sympathy with. And too, that as Bret so wisely points out, we should look to the plank in our own eye before we look to dislodge the speck in our brother’s.
All the best to you, sis.
Shalom
Johnny