The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

I remember when I was younger, this verse was commonly thought to mean ‘We get to Lord over people’. Isn’t it obvious? Judgment always means something negative. In a sense, Judgment can only mean being cast into Hell. We get to cast people into Hell! So, when that person who just won’t accept Jesus and ridicules us, we can gloat and say “I’ll get the last laugh when I judge them!”. In fact, we might not even want them to repent, knowing we will get our revenge… Ok, so that isn’t the exact thought pattern, but it is a very common one, I wager, among those of the traditional viewpoint of an eternal hell. I have heard that line of thinking a number of times from people.

However, if judgments in this life are trivial, then that implies the judgments in the next life are to be more complex and require even more ‘judgment’. Yet, most in the traditional camp would have you believe it will be simplistic as this:

“You didn’t believe the right things about Jesus, off to Hell” :smiling_imp:

A kiosk can do that type of judging, if in fact, that is the type of judging that will take place. But, of course, we know that isn’t the type of judging that is to take place. Christians need to get past the idea that Judgment is synonymous with negative consequences. Judgment itself is neutral, can be positive or negative depending on what or whom the judgment lay. But, knowing God’s character, the judgments are just and are therefore fair. Unless God be an evil deity, we can know that he is fair in all things and would only permit those who exhibit His fairness to judge the world and the angels.

So when I read this scripture again as a hopeful Universalist, it is clear to me that we play the role of judge to restore peace, to settle disputes and whatever else will need righteous judgment. Didn’t Jesus say “Whoever wishes to be great among you must be servant of all”? In my opinion, any Christian who thinks they are going to ‘Lord’ over people are greatly mistaken. That attitude is the exact opposite of what Christ taught us. It is quite clear to me that the saints are to work and restore people to God… They are, in fact, servants of God devoted to the salvation of the world both in this life and the next.

#2

I like your thought here very much, Gabe! :smiley:

Being such a MacDonaldphile I can’t help but think of the saints serving as some of the “wise” characters in his fantasies who know what tasks, treatment etc the protagonists need to be restored to God and let go of selfishness and besetting sins.

#3

It was a big eye-opener to me, to learn that the Israelites were looking forward to judgment – that they saw it as a positive thing in which they would be saved from their oppressors. Unfortunately for them, they had BECOME the oppressors and didn’t understand that THEY could be the bad guys as well as the oppressed. What a mess! To me, judgment is now a positive thing, like you guys have said, in which the saints are responsible for ministering to and judging the nations as the judges of Israel judged (cared for) the people.

The very sad thing about this passage is that it’s been used to cover up gross abuse WITHIN the “church” in which church leaders have required members to keep serious crimes (sexual abuse) within the church, where leaders who are truly ravening wolves have been set as the judges to arbitrate on behalf of the victims. :frowning: Yes, we SHOULD be able to judge matters that are our own business; apparently we aren’t quite able to do that. Or at least many of us aren’t quite able to discern false prophets as we ought. Not sure what the solution is here.

#4

I would think part of the solution is that sexual crimes =/= “trivial cases”! :angry:

But anyway, back to the verse at hand, the context definitely talks about civil cases regarding fair judgment resolutions between aggrieved parties, and that’s what is being compared to judging angels.

I suppose someone might reply, however, that the reverse a fortiori form could mean something like, “If we’re going to be responsible as judges someday to send rebel spirits to hell, surely we can be responsibly competent now to settle disputes between within our own Christian community and bring reconciliation between people who are religious brothers and sisters – that ought to be easy!”

On the other hand, St. Paul just got finished talking about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy (someone in the Christian community at Corinth) over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, which whatever it means certainly sounds harsh. (We’re having some discussion over in another thread about whether that judgment can mean to the death, or only means expulsion from the group – which it does at least mean as Paul explicitly says in a couple of different ways.)

And yet in doing so Paul’s intention is that by doing so the SSG’s spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord to come. So even the harshest sounding judgment to whole-ruination or total extermination or whatever, has a goal similar to trivial civil court cases. And that precisely because no doer of injustice shall inherit the kingdom of God.

#5

In regards to ‘inherit’ I always thought that was such an interesting word to use. Most of my Christian life understood that to mean that anyone who does those things goes to hell, forever. As I aged a bit, I started to notice something inside of me that perplexed me further. Who doesn’t commit sins in that list, ever? That would be a perfect person. That list pretty much includes all unrighteousness and at what point can someone claim ‘they don’t live like that’?.. The line is arbitrary. At what point do you live like that? When you yield to temptation 50% of the time? 30% of the time? Once a month? Once a year? Does there have to be a pattern to be classified living like that? So, that alone shot down two ideas I heard growing up as a Christian. It basically destroyed the argument that said 1) 'No one is perfect, so the only different between Christians and non-Christians is faith in Jesus. They may look and act the same and 2) That people are no good. We are all so evil.

I now reject both of those ideas, but still admit there is definitely some arbitrary factors to deal with. I think it is difficult to say to oneself “I am righteous” whether it be true or not in the basic overall sense. Because, the minute you think that of yourself, don’t you disqualify yourself? Yet, are we not to strive towards obedience to Christ? Doesn’t this striving alone make one Righteous? But, more arbitrary - How do you know if you are really ‘trying’ and ‘striving’, one could argue that even sinning once is failure to give your all. Why is that you may ask? Because of 1st Corinthians 10:13 - God never gives us something we cannot handle. Therefore, when we fail, we practice atheism. Is this not… a lack of striving?

When one Is raised to believe and interpret verses about God that shows him to be a hard master, it is a very difficult to break out of that mold. I even find myself falling back into it every so often… Somewhat off topic, but back the main point in my first paragraph. It is possible inherit is used in the same was as the brother of the prodigal son? The older brother inherited it all, the younger brother, did not… But he still had the Father.

#6

interesting thread here thanks for posting