The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Origen and eternal punishment

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

“They are not in reality liars who use circumlocution 6 because of the oeconomy of salvation.” Origen said that “all that might be said on this theme is not expedient to explain now, or to all. For the mass need no further teaching on account of those who hardly through the fear of æonian punishment restrain their recklessness.” The reader of the patristic literature sees this opinion frequently, and unquestionably it caused many to hold out threats to the multitude in order to restrain them; threats that they did not themselves believe would be executed.8

Aionos punishment was understood by people as be tortured forever. Origen knew that when he said aionos punishment, people understand ECT. Do you know another “aionos punishment” said by a church father in a context of universal salvation?

tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

#2

I think that Origen as well as all other early Christians writers (including Biblical writers) took the Greek word “aionios” as meaning “lasting”. The idea of “eternal” was assigned to the word later, perhaps by Augustine.

#3

But I have the feeling that Origen speaks of eternal punishment because he does not want people to know that the torment will have an end. He hiddes that information. Do you know of any passage where it is said that the wicked will suffer eternal punishment and then get out of it? I would like to read it, because this matter of eternal torments makes me a little anxious.

#4

No, but from the examples of old testament it seems God Loved people like Abraham and Isaac who Lied to Abimelech,
about their wife, were they aware of lake of fire?
why should God torment his children forever? take a look at this: godsplanforall.com/paganoriginofhell
what do you think?

#5

Let’s start with this famous passage which is supposed to prove the opposite:

Mt 25:46 and they will go away into lasting correction, but the righteous into lasting life.

The Greek word “kolasis” was used originally with reference to the pruning of trees, and was later used figuratively for correction of people. If “aionios” means “eternal”, then it speaks of the goats going to “eternal correction”. How can correction be eternal?
When would it ever be completed?

#6

Thanks Paidon. I was asking for a “eternal punishment” saying from a universalist church father who clearly does not teach ECT.

#7

Hi Sopho,

Gregory of Nyssa seems to fulfill your question nicely. Gregory often uses the term “eternal punishment”, yet simultaneously he believed in universal salvation. Gregory once said: “Because you learned to understand something different from what exists in reality, when you hear the words fire or worm, you should not think of the earthly fire or insect.” (I am not sure where this quote comes from, but it is attributed to Gregory).

Gregory’s book, On the Soul and the Resurrection, would probably give you some exposure to these terms.

newadvent.org/fathers/2915.htm

I am currently reading Hosea Ballou’s book, Ancient History of Universalism:

archive.org/details/ancienthistoryof1872ball

It has a remarkable collection of history and quotation from the earliest centuries. I am finding the book riveting; although I do like this sort of research of patristic teachings.

Peace
S.

#8

I’ve just started working through Dr. Ramelli’s massive tome on patristic universalism, and while she hasn’t focused entirely on Origen yet, during her survey of how the term apokatastasis was used in antiquity and early Christianity she mentions in passing that Origen regarded eonian life to refer to the life of the age to come when punishments of sinners would also occur.

So while she hasn’t cited him yet on some variety of the term ‘punishment’ described as ‘eonian’, the implication is that Origen would himself regard that term to refer to punishments of the age to come before final salvation of all sinners from sin.

When I start seeing reference to a term like ‘eonian punishment’ (whether that’s kolasis or timoria or whatever), I’ll try to remember to report back in here. I’m only 22 pages into a very long book with tiny fonts. :wink:

#9

This may not be that for which you are asking, Sopho, but …