We all think that when we make a post. It’s very clear in our heads, though maybe not to anyone else.
Have no idea what you’re saying, but I defend your right to say it.
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I need to post a warning sign, for this forum discussion! 
“Generally speaking we’ve got facts, beliefs and opinions.
Most the time we mash them all together
We make beliefs facts… opinions beliefs…facts…beliefs… and on and on” - Alice Hattie
Agreed.
Well, will be, anyhow…
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If ET is professed, yes, very true. However, if death is the penalty, as Romans 6:26 says, then He could have technically paid it, and then also be resurrected. However, if that were the case, then why do we still die? Assuming, of course, Christ was our substitute. IMO, both ET and Death as punishment pose serious problems for PSA.
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I found an interesting article today…from the Patheos Catholic newsletter:
Let me quote a paragraph I liked, which might be applicable here:
I am not a theological Protestant, though some would take me to be such. Theologically I think like a Catholic, with two basic assumptions. (1) that God is present to all of creation and to all human beings immediately, directly, silently, always, and that that Presence is experienced by us even when we don’t know it; (2) that the meaning of that immediate Presence is mediated to us through our experience in nature, history and culture, especially through Christ’s church (Revelation) – even through Dawkins, Hitchens and their tribe. This is the sacramental principle that forms the substance of Catholic religious experience, especially displayed in worship, sacrament and service to the poor. But neither The Church (i.e. the episcopal caste) nor the church (all of us together) has a monopoly on God’s grace. I had a greyhound friend, Bridget by name, who mediated God’s grace to me morning and evening and in between, and she was not even a Catholic much less a bishop. When I watched her sleep (she slept about twenty hours a day) I meditated on the glory of God shinning in her. She, too, was a gift of God meant to bring before my soul the giftedness of human and animal living and the beauty of the One who is not seen. Alas, I am too old now to have a friend who needs a walk and must be satisfied with the trees outside my window which don’t and the crucifix on my wall.
Also, let me share a segment…from today’s newsletter by RC Fr. Richard Rohr:
The Jewish scholar Martin Buber points out in his marvelous early study of the prophets, The Prophetic Faith, that usually what the prophets said would happen actually did not happen. That’s because the future is always contingent upon our cooperation, choices, and actions. Therefore, if we live in love and treat the poor with justice, the good will happen.
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Lol, great memes.
This is kind of fun
Reformed EUs hold PSA by simply reaffirming that Jesus being infinite could absorb and pay the elects’ eternal judgment, and that election is universal. I don’t think they see any reason why if the atonement was for more people, it would require Jesus to suffer longer.
I also don’t think it’s accurate that PSA need be combined with a limited election or atonement. Arminians who hold it see a universal atonement, and that Jesus suffered judgment’s penalty for all.
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Because the price has been paid for all. It’s a blanket acquittal.
Maybe I am splitting hairs, but that seems closer to a ransom. I’ll try not to sound blasphemous by saying this, but if we did in fact deserve ET and Christ was our substitute, He should still be in Hell. Otherwise the system is unjust because it shows partiality of the supposed rigid system that required the substitute in the first place.
Let me be clear: God can do anything. I think my issue is with what I perceive to be a contradiction with commonly held views of PSA.
It could be that Christ has the power to “pay” the full penalty, but we humans could never pay it because we would keep accruing more debt. Sort of like student loans.
I wish that guy hadn’t have gotten mad and split; I wanted to discuss this more because I wrestle with this big time. I found his initial post interesting.
Angry I.T. guy, come back!
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That is actually an interesting (and good) analogy. Never thought of it that way.
Chris_Geeen & HenP, I read through my responses to you a minute ago and realized I was far from clear on some of my first ones and see where I may have given the impression that I felt Christianity was toxic. So I want to clarify my response to Chris_Green when he said this:
Chris_Green said: I stand before the judgment of God, with very real anxiety about the many ways in which the contents of my mind might displease him. If only others would do the same.
My statement was intended to say that belief in a harsh God that has us cowering in fear, constantly worried and depressed how we fail him constantly is very unhealthy and toxic. Doubly, wishing that everyone else takes God as seriously as you do, serious, being of course, the attitude expressed above (dejected, anxious, condemned, etc…) Seems like poison. I came from that and do not wish anyone to be like that. I see it as a self made prison. An illusion, a trap.
So my entire point was to challenge the belief in a harsh God, not God itself. Challenge the belief that he is constantly disappointed in us, or that he intends us to be in such emotional pain, focusing so hard on ourselves that we fail to see others and engage in this world. The version of Christianity I was raised with is ultimately very selfish. When I became a Father, I saw that and changed. I saw God through the eyes of a Father.
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Here is a blog post defending PSA. I think it’s an interesting take on it.
http://thereforenow.com/2017/05/taking-the-low-road-penalties-and-substitutions/
I’m going to watch that now.
Just fyi, here’s a pretty good website for the uni-trin question. He specializes in the ECF. (early church fathers)
edit: Interesting post, Andre.
That seems entirely logical to me. But PSA folk don’t recognize it. It appears they think ET is how total condemning wrath would manifest on humans, but that such complete wrath could be suffered by someone more divine in more of a jiffy.