The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Original Sin - Time to break to taboo and have a chat

Here we go Bird – (as promised but still haven’t looked at Original Innocence)

You bring up an interesting issue with evolution. As someone with an interest in psychology, I have very big gripes with evolutionary psychology. Evolutionary psychology when applied seems to instantly turn into some pseudo-horoscope style guessing on what man should do.

:smiley: :smiley: Huge , huge agreement here Bird - most huge. Evolutionary psychology if used modestly may have some genuine thing to teach us. But as a key to the total explanation of everything it is so dumb. One of the concepts in EP is that ideas work like self replicating viruses - they call them ‘memes’ (and meme theory is currently dying a death by a thousand cuts). TI enables them to label anything they don’t like as a viral meme (like religion) and anything they do like as just the plain old truth (evolutionary psychology for example). I saw a hilarious example of an ER chap getting into seriously deep water when he was being interviewed on the television a couple of years ago. The show was about altruism. They had a sweet and kindly granddad on who had rescued a child - who was not his own kin - instinctively, thereby putting his own life in danger. Well the Er chap was obviously fixated on a kin survival model of altruism (we only act altruistically because our genes want to survive in our offspring) although I understand other ER people work more on a species survival model). He treated the kindly granddad with a certain amount of disdain for having been ‘infected’ by a meme which had made him act against his proper duty towards kin survival (if you go around rescuing strangers, you can’t look after your own kin – naughty, naughty!!!)

Further various ideas on social structures how the strong should defeat the weak in capitalism and we shouldn’t have social programs and rich people are the high rollers and so on. Darwin, who was a Christian early on, and drastically against using his ideas to generate this “darwinism” movement, is rolling in his grave

:slight_smile: Agreed - interestingly Darwin lost his faith initially because he could no longer believe in the wrathful God of his upbringing (it happened a lot to second generation Victorian Evangelicals). His agnosticism because of the pointless suffering in nature came later

It’s funny – to be kind the dear old fundamentalists for once- it was certainly a horror at Social Darwinism, as much as a rigidity about biblical literalism, that inspired William Jennings Bryan to take up cudgels in the Scopes monkey trial.

Tbh, I think this sounds… stupid. It’s the same as Divine Comedy rubbish.

:slight_smile: :neutral_face: Och well, we can’t agree on everything. I like to see people in the context of their times. For his time Dante was a revolutionary. He walked with pity amongst the damned when the mainstream Western tradition looked forward to scoffing at their torments. His love for Beatrice may just be plain weird by modern standards - but he did something very revolutionary with his weird love. He redeemed human love between a man and a woman, because his love of Beatrice is the path that takes him to Paradise (this is real departure from the then dominant misogynistic western view of the Fall that put the blame on Eve). Also I’ve seen Jungian’s interpret the whole of the Divine Comedy in terms of a journey in ‘individuation’. Dante didn’t literally travel through hell to Paradise. He’d been to his own hell, purified himself in his own purgatory, and become integrate din his own inner paradise. The Divine Rose of Paradise at the close of the Comedy is often spoken of in terms of being a mandala - a Jungian symbol of integration.

All the very best Bird

Dick

Johnny - just a quickie. Really glad you’ve got a good Doctor - they are so hard to come by with sensitivity and expertise in affective disorders (especially if you are a bloke actually - but things are changing). Regarding Calvinism – the dear old Calvinists - it’s a weird one. Calvinism expresses a partial truth - and a number of prominent Universalists have come from the Reformed tradition (Sterry and White, Karl Barth, Jan Bonda (for example). Apart from its sectarian tendencies, the thing that worries me about Calvinism is that if we believe only truly God acts we end up with a sort of pantheism in which we actually don’t exist (because all of our ideas and intuitions about being a person are connected with notions of choosing, and freedom - even if the freedom is very much limited). It’s a real depersonalised vision. I’ve heard it said that whereas in pantheism the drop of water that is the human soul dissolves back into and merges with the sea of God when it dies, in the Vision of Christ as ‘All in all’ the sea enters the drop in its fullness, but the drop remains still a drop. (Nice bit of potted mysticism for you - sorry!)

Calvinist pantheism also seems to tie in with other depressive notions of grace - namely that because we are so helpless and corrupted by the fall that grace actually destroys and completely replaces our human nature rather than perfecting it. I understand that the official teaching of the Catholic Church on Grace rightly, in my view, suggests that grace works at making whole the funny creatures we are, working with the grain of our natures rather than completely replacing them (and this softens any Augustinian emphasis in contemporary Catholicism).

Me - I’m a synergist; see post to Bird above. We may stumble all of the time but we keep trying and must not get disconsolate at our imperfections.

All the very best

Dick (we talk Satan next?)

Hi Dick

Thanks for those thoughts. Yes, I am fortunate to have such a kind and understanding doctor. I also have great support from both my family and my boss and those colleagues at work who know about my anxiety disorder.

Your observations on Calvinism are, as ever, trenchant, challenging - and spot on, I would say. I like what you say about Calvinism being a sort of pantheism, and I *love *your bit of potted mysticism!

Have you noticed that we have had a Calvinist - his name is Matt - join us on the forum today? He seems like a very nice chap from his introductory post, but I suspect he will find he has his hands full engaging with the anti-Calvinists here - of which, of course, I am one!

Incidentally, I am quite a big fan of Karl Barth - although I haven’t read him widely. I believe he never actually classified himself as a Univeralist, although he certainly was one.

Shalom

Johnny

Thanks Johnny - as ever

The metaphor for pantheism etc, is not original. It’s a rehash of something I once read long ago and far away - I think it may have come from a book by Anthomy Bloom who was a Russian Orthodox Patirarch in the UK.

Have greeted Matt the Calvinist - seems like a nice, open guy. I wouldn’t say I was anti-Calvinist (although I think it wobbles!). Rather I woudl say that I’m anti sectarian Calvinism. Perhaps I should do a post on this?

all the best

Dick

@Sobornost

When I say “Divine Comedy rubbish” I’m not referring to Dante’s Divine Comedy. In fact, I haven’t read it, and have no opinion on it, besides some random excerpts I may have read.

What I mean is the various detailed and graphic descriptions of literal Hell torments that people have either dragged from the Divine Comedy as complete truth or made up for themselves based on similar works. I’m talking about the whole girl-in-the-oven thing, or that Protestant picture of man’s every body part being tortured in some weird way, or some fire imagery, or w/e.

“I like to see people in the context of their times.”

I am, honestly, not so permissive. I believe these issues have little to do with any particular time, because as far as time goes we will find ourselves waiting forever. Humans have been espousing their foolish ideas about stuff like afterlife tortures for generations. Even Paul criticized their tendency to make up gods with animal heads. It is foolishness, and it’s a rather timeless foolishness, where man loses what is alien and holy and creates what is, well, of man, of those parts of man that are not from God. And these things we can, in fact, detect by their mere stupidity and foolishness - the animal gods, the human gods, the cruel gods, the gods that claim to be powerful but limit their own power, the petty gods… This is the test for the outer God, the true Creator, and every religion or book or tradition has to stand against this test, even Christianity or various deformations and variations of Christianity.

Oh dear Bird - I really didn’t mean to get on your nerves. I thought you were referring to Dante, and it’s all a bit yuk becuase its a bit elitist. C.S. Lewis often referred to Dante in the books I’ve read by him, so that’s why I mistook the two references together in one post; people often refer to him here as - 'Lewis said… but I think reading C.S. Lewis introduced me to this stuff in the first place - I read his ‘Allegory of Love’, ‘Discarded Image’ and ‘Four Loves’ after the Narnia Chronicles - a freind gave them to me - and I enjoyed them greatly, although I gather people on this site may have read other stuff by him). But you know that I meant no intentional irritation (and I told you about theJungian interpretation because you showed an interest in Jung ealier, adn it actually go tme thinking about Jung and the problem of evil). Och well -

If you read my posts you will realise that I have as much horror as you at cruelty and gloating over torture - I really do, and always have had. Why imagine this stuff when you can do some letter writing for Amnesty International I say.

All the best

Dick

P.S. I am your friend - even if I am also a pompous old bore :laughing:

Dick

As if by magic …

[Satan, a person or a personification?)

Please join in!

Cheers

Johnny

Johnny - that’s an absolutley brilliant post you’ve started!!! Just the job - it all fits with the debate on Original Sin but is far better broached as a single thread. People have loads of ideas too!!! James has blown it!!! :laughing: - he and I have already engaged in a long conversation by email on this topic. Since I’m still wanting to keep this thread going, what I think I’ll do is shape up what we’ve been speaking about so it is an informal essay and then I’ll post it on the essays thread. That way you’ll be able to read it and argue about it if you wish but I can stick at this. Howzat sound? (I have got thoughts very relevant to the discussion on your thread but not yet looked at in any detail, and they are not centred around my personal story).

All the best

Dick

P.S. Bird. apologies for benig grumpy. Even sweet and saintly souls like me :wink: get like this seomtimes (rather oftenactually) especially when we’ve been posting too much and are tired!!! :laughing: ) Bless you with your passionate soul!

Dick

Sounds like a great plan! Except I can’t take credit for starting the thread, twas Sherman who did that. :smiley: I’ve certainly thrown in my two-pence worth though. :smiley:

Look forward to reading your essay. The subject is *much *more complex than I had thought …

Shalom

Johnny

Ooops - sorry Sherman :blush: . It’s a great thread you’ve started (and if you’re reading this) will post mine and James thoughts as an essay so I don’t have to get heavily involved in the thread argument. Once I’ve posted, anyone who reads it (if anyone reads it!!!) can quote it, misquote it, agree with it (in part or in full) or disagree with it (in part or in full) - but I think my discussion with James has explored slightly different angles on the issue of Satan than some that have developed on the new thread to date (I don’t want to interrupt the thread by putting a great wodge of stuff inthe middle of it that closes down conversation; and if I post it in bits I will get drawn into a conversation again that James and I have already had and completed, and be acting as the Fat Controller on another thread - if you see what I mean?).

All the best

Dick :slight_smile:

Hi Johnny -

I thought you might be interested in this because it connects to our earlier discussion about despair and consolation. I was reading C.S. Lewis’ ‘The Four Loves’ this morning and came across this passage:

‘If we cannot ‘practise the presence of God’, it is something to be able to practice the absence of God. to become increasingly aware of our unawareness tell we feel like a man who should stand beside a great cataract and hear no noise, or like a man in a story who looks in a mirror and finds no face there, or a man in a dream who stretches out his hand to visible objects and gets no sensation of touch’.

I will add that this ‘practice of the absence of God’ or ‘dry prayer’ is well known in many Christian traditions and often these ‘prayer states’ are viewed as especially productive in the training the soul (and much support is given to those experiencing these states through whatever network of ‘soul-friendship’ is available). Of course this is Lewis’ writing after his late and intense love for Joy Gresham had flowered and after he had intensely grieved her loss. It brought him face to face with the experience of mystery that, to my mind, profoundly enriched his faith. The pre-Joy Lewis seems far less vulnerable, more certain and even hectoring in his tone. Well that’s the impression I’ve gleaned from reading a couple of very sympathetic but not idolatrous biographies of the great man (and it is imporatant not to turn our heroes into idols).

I first came across Lewis as a child reading ‘The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe’ and ‘The Voyage of the Dawn Treader’ :smiley: :smiley: , and I loved both books. When I was a fundamentalist I came across extracts from ‘Mere Christianity’ and ‘The Problem of Pain’ that strike me, on reflection, as prone to the hectoring and over certain style described above. And to be honest, whatever I encountered at this time by Lewis merged in my mind with the message of the more ‘exciting’ stuff I was reading – the ghastly booklets of Jack T. Chick and Hal Lindsey’s equally ghastly ‘The Late Great Planet Earth’ – as if they were all one Gospel (and they were not one Gospel).

However, Lewis did become a ‘Master’ to me in the end because of some of his other books that I was given. ‘The Great Divorce’ introduced me to the notion of Universalism in an odd way (via George MacDonald of course – ‘your Master is my Master’s Master’ so to speak :laughing: ) ‘The Discarded Image’ – a wonderful book about the medieval world picture – introduced me to the joy of exercising historical imagination (something I still drone on about today – you may have noticed! :unamused: ). ‘The Allegory of Love’ is more of academic interest, and Lewis’ conclusions about the medieval cult of Courtly Love are now much disputed – but the book is a forerunner in its field and I’m glad I read it (once :wink: ). ‘The Four Loves’ is a wonderful, open and generous book and taught me a small amount about emotional intelligence – the large amount I have yet to master.

All the best

Dick :slight_smile:

One more time without typos (see above)

’If we cannot ‘practise the presence of God’, it is something to be able to practice the absence of God. To become increasingly aware of our unawareness till we feel like a man who should stand beside a great cataract and hear no noise, or like a man in a story who looks in a mirror and finds no face there, or a man in a dream who stretches out his hand to visible objects and gets no sensation of touch’. :blush: :blush: :blush:

Hi Johnny -

I’ve said I’d write something about Calvinism here – so here goes. :astonished:

One of the very positive things about Calvinism is that it gives proper emphasis to the gratuitous and irresistible love of God – so it can undercut any works based schemes of salvation which is, in my view, right. If we think we can earn God’s love by good works we’ve completely missed the point, and if we do good to try and earn grace, once again, we are missing the same point. (This is not to say that we should not strive to do good, but rather that this has to be done as a response to an acknowledgement that we are already loved just as we are and therefore should try to act accordingly; and, of course, forgive ourselves and others when we often stumble. And the doctrine of the gratuitous and irresistible love of God has, for some notable figures in the Ecumenical Calvinist fold, lead in the direction of either hopeful or certain universalism.

Again, on a positive note, I’ve mentioned the balanced evaluation of Calvinism in ‘The Death of Adam’ by the American novelist and essayist Marilynne Robinson. You don’t have to buy it. I’ll try and summarise her arguments here to you (from memory, for I no longer have the book – and I’ll put in some bits and bobs gleaned from elsewhere also)

Marilynne Robinson points out that Calvin has been demonised unfairly – especially over the burning of the Arian/Unitarian Christian Michel Servetus as a heretic at his instigation in Geneva. It is chiefly for this that his name has been blackened – especially by liberal American historians in the nineteenth century who thought him guilty of what amounts to un-American activities. In Calvin’s defence, Luther would have done the same thing, as would Elizabeth I of England – and she gets very good press from the same historians – who approved the burnings of two Anabaptists and four Arian/Unitarians in her time. For all of her tolerance the damnatory clauses of the Athanasian Creed put non—Trinitarian Christians beyond the pale for her (and it’s not even clear that the Anabaptists she had burned were non-Trinitarians, although this is what they were condemned for). By way of contrast, Calvin went to great pains to persuade Servetus to repent and wanted Servetus’ sentence commuted to beheading when he remained unrepentant. However, Calvin’s hands were tied by the chief governing body of Presbyterian Elders who ruled Geneva. This is not to condone the awful and shameful crime of the burning of Servetus – or the many other crimes of religious terror in Geneva and elsewhere in Christian Europe at this time; but it does go some way to mitigate Calvin’s role.

Robinson also says much about the tradition of social justice found in Calvin and in his followers – it wasn’t all Protestant work ethic utilitarianism (but see later). She especially cites the American Calvinist Jonathan Edwards in this connection, who was concerned with the plight of the poor, and treated the Native Americans with consideration (he was also a slave owner, but his son became an anti slavery campaigner). She contrasts this attitude unfavourably with the harsh policies of Social Darwinism – hence her lament for the death of Adam. In addition she does a close textual analysis of Darwin’s ‘The Descent of Man’ and shows that Darwin cannot be totally excused from the legacy of harsh social engineering and eugenics associated with the Social Darwinists.

Regarding the history of Calvinism in England – which I know quite well – Calvinism contributed much to the development of representative democracy (I’m sure this is the case elsewhere to). The Presbyterian organisational structure is based on a hierarchy of committees but a democratic process is inherent in the election of these committees – and this gave ordinary people the skills and confidence with which later to demand secular franchise. In Elizabethan England the Queen was most perturbed at the degree of independence from her appointed bishops that these committees were achieving (and reined them in from time to time). She was also appalled by the Calvinist tradition of holding ‘Prophesyings’ - a sort of question and answer/interactive type of sermon - because the freedom of speech expressed in these threatened her Royal authority at a time when religion was always political.

Marilynne Robinson also says something about censorship in Geneva during Calvin’s time. Although the writings of Christian ‘heretics’ were censored there, the printing presses were given free rein to churn out the Greek and Roman classics – even the slightly salacious ones – because Calvin was very much a classical humanist scholar and the best ethos of Calvinism has always emphasised learning. Calvin was also a great scholar of the Church Fathers – but rather too fixated on Augustine to my mind. Unlike Luther he was strongly opposed to allegorical interpretation of the Bible, but he plainly acknowledged that the biblical writers were not:

‘…strongly concerned with precise accuracy and their worldview often prevented them from making accurate statements. For example, he noted that Genesis describes the moon as being larger than Saturn and that Matthew’s account of the journey of the wise men probably misidentifies a comet as a star. He regarded such passages as evidence that the Holy Spirit accommodated the ancient worldview of biblical writers in inspiring scripture. Elsewhere, Calvin observed that the Gospel writers ‘were not scrupulous in their time sequences, nor even in keeping to details of words and actions.’ The Evangelists ‘had no intention of so putting their narrative together as always to keep an exact order of events’, he remarked. Calvin explained that the Gospel writers were moved by a deeper spiritual concern than factual accuracy. This concern was their commitment to ‘bring the whole pattern together to produce a kind of mirror or screen image of those features most useful for the understanding of Christ’. Calvin urged that it was pointless to quibble over the details of scriptural texts or to treat the Bible as a sourcebook for rational proofs or arguments. Just as the prophets and apostles did not fuss about with details or proceed by arguments, he argued, ‘we ought to seek our conviction in a higher place than human reasons, judgements, or conjectures, that is, in the secret testimony of the spirit’. (Gary Dorrien, ‘The Remaking of Evangelical Theology’, pages 20-21).

It is well known by scholars that Calvin was no fundamentalist and actually had very little to say about predestination. However, in the two generations after Calvin (Dorrien again) the –

‘…Reformed emphasis on salvation as an unmerited gift of grace, bestowed by an absolutely sovereign God through faith in Christ, gave rise to highly forensic understandings of the gospel message. Post-Reformation orthodoxy assiduously protected this message from any creeping Catholic influence. Reformed confessional statements emphasized the theme sof double predestination, absolute divine sovereignty, and salvation by grace through faith. Right doctrine not only trumped all concerns with the spiritual life but sharply limited any possible claims about the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. The spiritual coldness and troubling moral implications of Protestant orthodoxy gave rise to the first glimmerings of a different type of evangelicalism in seventeenth century England and Germany…a movement away from creedal intellectualism of Reformed orthodoxy, arguing for a more spiritually integrative version of the Christian faith (namely the Pietist and the Holiness movements.’ (Gary Dorrien, ‘The Remaking of Evangelical Theology’, page 5).

And this leads us on to a consideration of the downside of Calvinism – particularly the sectarian Calvinism that is uninterested in the witness of the wider Church and tends to keep splitting into smaller and smaller sects driven by a lust for doctrinal correctness and a real hatred of that which it rejects.

In my last post I cited C.S. Lewis on the ‘practise of the absence of God’. Calvinism at its worst has no such tradition of ‘dry prayer’. Due to the belief in the assurance of the elect (standing over and against the non-assurance of the reprobate) and the aggressive propagation of this belief - extreme Calvinism has often been accompanied by epidemics of despair and suicide. This was the case in Calvinist Geneva – where apparently the homicide rate dropped fifty percent because of the strict regulation of behaviour, but the rise in the suicide rate more than compensated for this drop in homicides. It was the case in late Elizabethan England and in Jacobean England when Calvinism seemed to be winning. Thomas Cartwright, the Elizabethan extreme Calvinist Divine - who ultimately became a sectarian - argued that people suffering from ‘melanchonia’ were reprobates experiencing a foretaste of their own damnation (the Anglican Richard Hooker wrote against this idea with pastoral clarity and merciful passion). It was the case in eighteenth century America when Jonathan Edward’s ‘Great Awakening’ was accompanied by a number of suicides. And here is another paradox regarding Calvinism (in addition to my musings about Calvinism and Pantheism in an earlier post); Calvinism, that prides itself in its forensic intellectualism sets very strong store by emotionalism. Faith is full of paradox – but sectarian Calvinists are the last to admit this.

Regarding Marilynne Robinson point about Calvinism and social justice – there is much merit in her evidence. However, this needs to be balanced against the elements in Calvinism that gave us the Protestant work ethic. This is the idea that either a sign of assurance is a capacity for hard work and thrift, or that the only outlet for the anxiety over election is to throw yourself into your work and to keep working until you drop (both have been argued). Whole books have been written on this. I would modestly observe that just as ‘the Sabbath was made for man’ so work is meant primarily to serve the good of human society and human beings; it is not an end in itself. I also observe that the Calvinist Work Ethic has been responsible, at times, for harsh attitudes towards God’ poor that have come close to Social Darwinism.

Regarding the Calvinist contribution to democracy in England (and elsewhere), I have to balance this by saying that the Calvinists came chiefly from the educated classes and their Biblical based Christianity presupposed a good level of literacy. They were terrible in their attitude towards God’s illiterate poor, who were recently deprived of the comforts of Catholic sacramentalism. The Calvinist committee members spied on them, interrogated them, and often persecuted them as heretics. In this connection I note that the record of Calvinists in the witch hunts is less than glorious; most of those burned after kangaroo court trials – with neighbours settling scores against neighbour - were actually Christians with woolly, illiterate doctrinal views.

On the penal substitution thread I’ve mentioned that whereas Luther’s opposition of Law and Gospel/Grace lead him into rabid and hate filled anti-Semitism, the forensic identification of Law and Gospel/Grace in Calvinism has produced relatively philo-Semitic attitudes. However, there is a downside to this. Thomas Cartwright, the Elizabethan Calvinist wanted the laws of Leviticus to become the Law of England. The quasi-fascist Dominionist movement founded by Gary North and Rousas Rushdooney in America of late has put forward the same arguments for Christian theocracy. I’ve suggested earlier that this is to misread the dynamic tradition of Jewish law – where in the time of Christ the horror at the thought of justice listening to false witness and the horror at the shedding of innocent blood meant that the greatest Rabbis agued for only the mildest of penalties. Surely it also flies in the face of the mercy code of Jesus – our Greatest Rabbi - shown in the story of the woman taken in adultery which strongly suggests that since we are all sinners, we have no right to impose ultimate penalties on our fellow sinners.

At this point I’d like to say something else good about Augustine. In his ‘City of God’ he elaborated Christ’s parable of the Wheat and the Tares. There are two cities in this world; the City of Man, governed by ‘cupiditas’ (self regarding desire); and the City of God governed by ‘caritas’ or (disinterested love). In this world the two interpenetrate each other, but must never be identified (as they are in the theocratic model). So a moderate Augustinian tradition, based on Augustine’s metaphor will argue that it is the proper function of law to prevent us from doing harm to each other; but it is not the law’s function force us to be good (not least because fallen and imperfect beings often find it hard to conceive of what the good is – even if they think they can read it out of the Bible). Likewise the proper function of law is to establish and maintain peace rather than truth (because our grasp on truth as fallen creatures will always be at best provisional). I have no problems with this.

This is a long post – but the subject is a complex one and I’d like to finally say a word about Frances Schaeffer; he’s the author that introduced me to Calvinism. There is a lot I can say about him; about his ‘Christian Manifesto’(which advocated that the law should establish and maintain Truth over Peace and inspired the actions of fanatics who Schaeffer himself would not have condoned); about the biography of him written by his son Frank (who is a bit sex obsessed for my liking, but people have not been able to give the lie to all of his revelations, which actually make Frances Schaeffer seem a rather a complex and lovable human being, and someone who did much good). I’d just like to say a couple of things about Frances Schaeffer’s reading of cultural history in his books, chiefly ‘The God Who is There’.

In his books Schaeffer argues that there was a distinctive Northern European Reformation Culture which showed proper respect for human dignity and in which God was sovereign – he’s talking chiefly about Calvinism but also shows approval of Luther. However, in his view, there was also a hubristic Southern European humanist tradition – emphasising the independence of human reason apart from God’s sovereign grace - rooted in the Catholic Humanism of Thomas Aquinas, developed by the Renaissance humanists, and eventually leading to the advent of secular humanism that has drifted into modern nihilism which we can see in the dreadful atrocities of the death camps at Auschwitz and in modern permissive society.
Well, it’s simply not true that all Renaissance humanists emphasised human independence apart from God’s grace. Certainly Petrarch, arguably the first Christina humanist, loved Augustine and had a thoroughly introspective consciousness. Some of the southern humanists such as the Italian Pico might have tended towards an over confidence in human reason, but the mainstream tradition that flourished predominantly in Northern Europe held to a sort of synergistic doctrine of redemption as a collaboration between the human and the divine. Calvin himself was a humanist in his insistence on sound and historical biblical scholarship.

In speaking of the Reformed tradition of human dignity Schaeffer completely ignores the contribution of the Anabaptist tradition to the establishment of human rights in Europe. He praises the writings of the seventeenth century Englishman John Locke as the high point of ‘Christian law’. However, Locke, although an Anglican, was a secret Arian/Biblicist Unitarian; he was also aware through correspondence with Dutch Armenian humanist scholars of the cover up that Protestant martyrologies had achieved in blaming all intolerance and persecution on Popery and Romish attitudes alone; it was the sins of Reformed religion and magisterial Protestantism in general that inspired Locke’s writings on religious toleration.
And I note that the downside of secular humanist rationalism of the enlightenment may have been present in the methodical mechanization of death in Nazi Germany – but Luther also has a lot to answer for.

With Schaeffer we have a Calvinist, intellectual fundamentalist who, because of his elect status, could serve up a version of history which had to be true – hence his guru status amongst the faithful and his lack of any humility or attention to inconvenient counter evidence in his arguments and analysis. With him we have history of ideas framed as a ‘clobber text’ – and his books are still used like biblical proof texts by intelligent fundamentalists.

Schaeffer was a man of compassion. He did chide the Reformers for their attitudes on slavery and anti-Semitism, seeing this as their wilful disobedience to the clear teaching of the Bible. But the way I see it Schaeffer would not have read the Bible as forbidding either if he had not first had to come to terms with the holocaust, and if he had not been subjected to an awareness of the Civil Rights Movement (because it was this movement more than the abolition of slavery that drove home the full truth of the dignity of Black people to White Christians).

Sectarian Calvinism has a stern tradition of discerning God’s favour and wrath in human history. This sometimes can be a little irritating to the outsider. For instance, the Welsh Calvinist preacher Martyn Lloyd Jones ranted about the German bombing of Britain being a just judgement of God against a sinful Britain during World War II (go figure?). Likewise, Calvinist inspired fundamentalists ranted about 9/11 being a judgement of God against the toleration of gay people in America. As for me I don’t think we should identify the engine of history with the will of God – this is what Hegel and Marx did in turn. History has its catalogue of innocent victims. It is to the revelation of history’s innocent victims that we should look for the meaning of history as revealed in Christ the innocent victim.

All the best

Dick

This is primarily for Drew and Johnny -

The long post on Calvinism was a bit depressing (but necessary I hope). So I’d just like to add something about Richard Hooker who I mentioned in my post as an opponent of extreme Calvinism in the Elizabethan Church. Christopher Insole writes of Hooker -

‘In a sentiment which will be echoed by Barth’s (the Ecumenical Calvinist’s) declarations on the openness of the Church and the sinful pride of human judgement between good and evil, Hooker tells us that the
‘safest axioms of charity to rest itself upon are these ‘ he which steadfastly believes is (saved) and ‘he which believes not as yet may be the child of God’. It becomes not us during this lifetime altogether to condemn any man seeing that (for anything we know) there is hope of every man’s forgiveness, the possibility of whose repentance is not yet cut off by death. And therefore charity ‘which hopeth all things’ prayeth also for all men’. (Hooker, Laws, Bk v, Ch.49. 1-2)
This charity which ‘hopeth all things’ does not do so in vain theologically speaking. Hooker’s vision of the Church is one which expresses the desire for participation found at every level of creation, finding its ultimate consummation in the infinite desire for God. It cannot be in vain to hope for ‘every man’s forgiveness’ if one’s anthropology inclines one to view the deepest satisfaction of all the yearning creation, is to move towards the creative centre. Peter Lake gives a beautiful evocation of Hooker’s vision, showing how in ‘the face of the Puritans’ inherently subversive view of the community of Christians, permanently fractured by division between the godly and the ungodly/the elect and the reprobate, one has Hooker’s more restful vision of the visible church which included everyone within the slow moving cycle of its outward observances, while the slow trickle of sacramental grace performed its subtly ameliorative work and the mystical body of Christ grew with glacial slowness and a soothing lack of conflict’.
(Christopher Insole, ‘The Politics of Human Frailty’ pages 56 -57)

Hooker was writing in the 1580s. His sentiments cited above seem to be evidence of a hopeful universalism within the Anglican Church expressed about forty years after the suppression of the 42nd article of the Anglican Prayer Book that affirmed the reality of Hell.

Against Calvinist teachings on despair, as Rowan Williams’ says, Hooker maintained that -

‘We ought to know that faith ‘like other aspects of our humanity, grows and changes. Faith is not something inhuman. It is bound in with our human emotion and experiences, and therefore the concrete sense of faith is not something on which we can place excessive reliance. Faith may be there but, like other aspect of humanity. Is susceptible to change and chance. We misjudge ourselves as faithless, says Hooker, when we do not see results quickly. And so we need another kind of assurance. We need the assurance that in our darkness or doubt or failure, God is faithful. Hooker writes –
An aggrieved spirit is therefore no argument for a faithless mind…(An) occasion for men’s misjudging themselves, as if they were faithless when they are not, is, when they fasten their thoughts on the distrustful suggestions of the flesh, and finding great abundance of these in themselves, they gather thereby ‘Surely unbelief has taken full dominion, it has taken possession of me; if I were faithful it could not be thus (and) …they lie buried and overwhelmed; when notwithstanding as the blessed apostle acknowledges (Romans. Viii. 26, 27) that ’the Spirit groaneth’, and that God hears us when we do not hear God ;so there is no doubt, but that our faith may have and does have her private operations secret to us, but known to God…Tell this to a people who has been deceived by too hard an opinion of themselves, and it will only augment their grief…Well to favour (indulge) them a little in their weakness; let what they imagine be granted– that they are faithless and without belief. But are they not grieved for their unbelief. Do they not wish it might be otherwise and also strive for this. We know they do…The faith therefore of true believers, though it has many and grievous downfalls, yet does it still continue secretly invincible.
(Rowan Williams, ‘Christian Imagination in Poetry and Polity’, pages 26 – 27)

What a wonderful pastoral sensitivity!

Christopher Insole’s book about Hooker cited above places Hooker firmly within the moderate Augustinian tradition of the two Cities mentioned in the last post. He argued that since none of us are perfect and therefore none has the right to ultimate judgement, good law should prevent and protect from harm rather than compel people to be good. He also argues that since none of us are perfect, all of us will have different take son ultimate truth – and therefore the law should strive peace rather than advocate sectarian ‘truth’.

Just to give you the unvarnished truth – as I always try to do – I must say I was initially shocked to see that Hooker, the gentlest of men, also wrote

‘Will any man deny that the Church doth need the rod of corporal punishment to keep her children in obedience’ (Laws, viii. Iii, 4)

Yes he believed that people should be coerced using fines and imprisonment if they refused to belong to the National Church (although I don’t think he advocated torture and death). We are all prisoners of our times and the role we play in the society of our times. It would take the upheavals of the next century for Anglicans to start arguing first for greater pluralism in the Church and then for a fully tolerant and pluralistic society. Because of the same upheavals, even the Calvinists in England, releasing that they were never going to take over the State and rule as a Parliament of Saints, to begin a period of painful reflection and become more accepting of difference and more open to collaboration with fellow Christians.
All the best

Dick

Drew - Quick thought for the morning-

Hooker tells us that the
‘safest axioms of charity to rest itself upon are these ‘ he which steadfastly believes is (saved) and ‘he which believes not as yet may be the child of God’. It becomes not us during this lifetime altogether to condemn any man seeing that (for anything we know) there is hope of every man’s forgiveness, the possibility of whose repentance is not yet cut off by death. And therefore charity ‘which hopeth all things’ prayeth also for all men’. (Hooker, Laws, Bk v, Ch.49. 1-2)

I really am beginning to think that Hooker was a hopeful universalist at heart, although I doubted this at first (and I’ll pick this up on Ecclesiology when I’ve done a wee bit more thinking about the issue of the suppression of the 42nd article). The difficult phrase in the above would appear to be - there is hope of every man’s forgiveness, the possibility of whose repentance is not yet cut off by death.

Hooker was bound by the 39 articles of faith. This meant that he did not have to affirm the reality of hell (or the idea that some are predestined for hell). But he could not affirm a belief in post mortem salvation through Purgatory. As article 22 of the NAglican PRayer Book states - “The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory…is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.” There are passages in scripture that strongly suggest the possibility of post mortem salvation (much discussed on this site) but abuse of the doctrine of Purgatory in late medieval Catholicism had placed discussion of the matter out of bounds for Protestant Christians.

(On Purgatory)Briefly -

The Western Church’s formulation of and suport for the doctrine of purgatory had been one of the bones of contention that had caused the split with the Eastern Church, who did not support it. However, purgatory undestood in a certian way comes close to the idea of hell in the universalist portions of th Eastern church and this is beginning to be understood in Ecumenical dialogue.

While the early medieval Western idea of Purgatory is that it is a place of hope and of purification, that might in some cases include suffering, by the late medieval period there seems little difference between descriptions of purgatory and descriptions of hell - both are imagined as nightmares of obscene, and seemingly endless torment without purpose; the only difference being that hell is literally never ending while purgatory merely lasts for a very long time indeed.

In the late medieval Church Purgatory has become a way for the church to make money; first Erasmus and then Luther pointed out with prophetic passion. This lead to two abuses of sacramental power by the Church for its own worldly gains. There was the practice of rich people leaving money to finance a chantry for their souls - monks and clergy employed in chantries had a very cushy number of a job chanting and praying for the soul of their rich posthmous patron to speed the patron’s exit from foul Purgatory. And there was the practice of the sale of indulgences, whereby remission from time in Pugatory could be bought for money that ended up in the coffers of the Church

So the subject of post mortem conversion and/or purification was closed to Hooker. However, I’m sure Hooker - with all his emphasis on the secret and unknown operations of grace - would not have pressumed to know the state of any soul at the point of death.

Did Hooker ever ponder the fate of the ‘unevangelised’ we may well ask. I can’t give a decisive answer on this - but his focus seems to be on his own pastoral concerns - on ministering to the souls of people in a national church and of combatting those forces threatening to split this church into warring factions.

I’ve said on the Church of England thread at Ecclesiology how the poetic logic of the Anglican Service for the Burial of the dead is universalistic (which outraged the Clavinists in Elizabethan England). I haven’t changed my mind about this. Hooker buried people according to this rite - with a peaceful heart I’m sure.

All of the evidence considered here when taken togther suggests to me that he was a hopeful (rather than a certain) universalist. His writings are seen as a source book of Anglican Orthodoxy by many in the Church of England today, as they have been in the past.

All the best

Dick

Hello Dick

Excellent, thoughtful and thought-provoking posts, as always. I shall need some time to digest all you say here :slight_smile: . But a couple of extremely knee-jerk thoughts occur to me:

Calvin wishing that Servetus’s death sentence be ameliorated to beheading doesn’t buy him much credit in my book. The problem I have is that Calvin was even bothered by Servetus’s supposed ‘heresy’ - because as a believer in predestination, surely he must have realised that no ‘heretic’ could affect an elect person’s cast-iron salvation? Or are you saying Calvin didn’t really believe in predestination, and it was those who came after him in his name who perpetuated that idea?

Hear hear! That is a truly inspiring quotation. Thank you so much for sharing it, it’s really helped a sometimes doubting old Thomas like me.

Shalom

Johnny

Johnny - I’m so glad you liked Hooker - I was thinking of you when I types up old chap! :smiley:

I agree - Calvinism is so logical it’s illogical, unless it is a basis for universalism - then I can do business with it as an important aspect of truth.

‘Woe to you lawyers’ said Jesus our Victor (and someone once commented that ‘this is prophetic and relevant to all times and places’). The law is there to protect is not to entrap us and enslave us.

Weird one about Servetus eh? All I am arguing is - giving Calvin the benefit of the doubt - his apettite for cruelty had limits. And it is hard to judge someone fomr another time. The only voices from the time raised in prophetic judgemnet were the Anabaptists - both the scriptuals and the spirituals; and the Humanist scholar Sebastian Castellio who may well have been an Anabaptist Spiritual at heart. We should all love them for this. Give flowers to the rebels who failed - or at least lived before the time was ripe.

All the best

Dick :slight_smile:

Hi Johnny – thought this might interest you,

(My source for what follows is chiefly from the American Quaker Rufus Jones’ history of the ‘Spiritual Reformers in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries’ – along with other bits and bobs, and my own personal reflections)

Sebastian Castellio was a Christian Humanist scholar and, at one time, Calvin’s favourite pupil in Geneva. As Calvin’s power increased, so Castellio began to have doubts about his ‘dear’ teacher. Rufus Jones tells us of Castellio’s growing disquiet –
‘A letter which Calvin wrote at this time to his friend Viret shows where the real tension lay. ‘Castellio has got it in his head that I want to rule!’ he writes. The great Reformer may not have been conscious of such a purpose yet, but there can be no question that Castellio read the signs correctly, and he was the first, as a later critic of Calvin has said, to discover that ‘to resist Calvin was, in the mind of the latter, to resist the Holy Spirit’. Maybe Jones’ history is a bit unfair – but I would agree with the general direction of this judgement (I’m so woolly!).

Castellio broke with Calvin over the burning of Servetus. He escaped pointless torture and death himself by escaping to Basle – where the ‘uber-Humanist’ Erasmus had also sought refuge and where the founder of the Anabaptist Spiritual movement lived at the time. There he published a brief Latin work on The Persecution of Heretics –under the pseudonym of Martinus Bellius in which he declared concerning the burning of Servetus -** ‘To burn a man is not to defend a doctrine, it is to burn a man’.**

In his tract Castellio wrote the following parable addressed to the Duke of Wurtemberg who was the protector of Basle:

**If you, illustrious Prince (these words were addressed to the Duke of Wurtemberg) had informed your subjects that you were coming to visit them at an unnamed time, and had requested them to be prepared in white garments to meet you at your coming, what would you do if on arrival you should find that, instead of robbing themselves in white, they had spent their time in violent debate about your person – some insisting that you were in France, others that you were in Spain; some declaring that you would come on horseback, others that you would come by chariot; some holding that you would come with great pomp and others that you would come without any train or following? And what especially would you say if they debated not only with words, but with blows of fist and sword strokes, and if some succeeded in killing and destroying others who differed from them? ‘He will come on horseback.’ ‘No, he will not; it will be by chariot,’ ‘You lie.’ ‘I do not; you are the liar.’ ‘Take that’ – a blow with the fist. ‘Take that’ – a sword thrust through the body. Prince, what would you think of such citizens?

Christ asked us to put on the white robes of a pure and holy life; but what occupies our thoughts? We dispute not only the way to Christ, but of his relation to God the Father, of the Trinity, of predestination, of free will, of the nature of God, of the angels, of the condition of the soul after death – of a multitude of matters that are not essential to salvation; matters which, moreover, can never be known until out hearts are pure; for they are things which must be spiritually perceived’**

Castellio’s tract against Calvin is one of the earliest works in European history advocating religious toleration. Before him, for example, Sir Thomas Moore, the English Christian Humanist and friend of Erasmus, could imagine an ideal society in which religious toleration was written into law. However this was in his fictional fantasy, ‘Utopia’. In reality Thomas Moore was a fierce, unrelenting and cruel persecutor of the first English Protestants. At least some of these Christian Humanists seemed to live with split minds. Not so Castellio. However, we must note that his work only advocates toleration between Christians – in no way does it advocate the sort of pluralism we have in the West today where a secular state is meant to protect the rights of people of all religions and none (and I’m not sure that Castellio could have imagined our situation).
Whatever – at the time Castellio’s idea was unforgivably new. The ‘orthodox’ reformer Beza called it ‘the diabolical doctrine’ (links curiously to our discussion of Satan over on the General thread as the false accuser, the agent provocateur who entraps those he prosecutes, and the one how demands strict justice without mercy)

All the best

Dick

Hi Dick, Thanks for your helpful posts about Hooker and Castellio. I certainly warm to Hooker and feel you may well be right to say he was a hopeful universalist. He did at least hold to a “generous orthodoxy” (borrowing Brian McLaren’s phrase). I hadn’t heard of Castellio before, but I do have a spanish friend who is still angry about Calvin’s treatment of Servetus. My friend is both a dentist and a professor of anatomy, in which Servetus was also a pioneer, centuries ahead of his time. Tom Talbott gives an excellent summary of the Servetus/Calvin affair in his wonderful book “The Inescapable Love of God”.

Hi Drew -

Always good to hear from you!

Well I didn’t know that about Servetus - most interesting; a scientist eh? No wonder he was suspect!. I can see that your friend feels so passionately about this one - and perhaps Marilynne Robinson’s excuse (that Calvin’s been singled out for this is unfair when all of the mainstram Reformers were up to it, is a bit lame - but she’s a good writer). You’ve mentioned Martin Bucer to me before and he was a little more moderate than the others - he banished Anabaptists from Strasbourg rather than killing them - but not a lot. Apparently the Dutch Republic was the most tolerant place to me - even more than Elizabeth’s England (and it took a Dutch King to really further the cause of complete religious tolerance in England in the shape of William III). I’d like to find out more about this one day, but first I must read Tom Talbott’s book.

All the best

Dick