The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Original Sin - Time to break to taboo and have a chat

Johnny - a thought on Calvin.
I am completely allergic to Calvinism from being hit over the head with big chunks of Cornelius Van Til and Francis Schaeffer when I was trying to find a way out of the Fundamentalist mindset. Sectarian Calvinism is a horrible thing… Extreme Calvinists think that all who are not of their party are simply depraved beasts with whom there can be no common ground. There is no common ground between them and us - secular science, for example, may cast doubt on a literal reading of Genesis; but there is no reason to trust this. The people doing the research are depraved and actually not seeing the same data the elect do. This mindset informed Apartheid in South Africa, for example (with a bit of racism thrown in to the recipe). I’ve always found it amusing that some Calvinist’s see Kuyper – the influential nineteenth century Dutch Calvinist - as a moderate and, therefore, a heretic. Kuyper suggested a policy of separate development for Calvinist, Catholic, and Secular communities in Holland. This idea became the root of Apartheid theology (although Kuyper would probably not have condoned apartheid himself). Kuyper was ‘generous’ enough to believe that people who are not of the elect are given a ‘common grace’ by God - which restrains their depravity and enables them to share a world with the elect - culturally, scientifically, and politically. So there can be good relations between the elect and the reprobate in this life -so long as a degree of separation is maintained. But this is all purely for the benefit of the elect - to make their lives comfortable here and now. In the world to come one of the punishments of the reprobate will be their despair at having common grace stripped from them. Nice eh!!!

Is Calvin responsible for all of this? Well some good things have come out of the teachings of John Calvin, like Calvinist Universalism (Barth etc). And if you ever want to read a sympathetic account of old John boy, by an open minded and very intelligent and empathic writer, I’d recommend the essay on Calvin in Marilynne Robinson’s ‘The Death of Adam’ (it certainly softened some of the anger in me).

All the best

Dick

There was also a post regarding this idea on Experimental Theology. Little did I know, though, that this was also be supported in the Bible:

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. [Hebrews 2:14-18|ESV]

I’m reading Hebrews right now, and there’s some really interesting stuff on it, particularly about Jesus’s humanity, since we’re on the topic of original sin and all. For one, there was a cross-reference in my ESV Bible from a verse in Hebrews 1 to 2 Samuel 7:14. And if you keep reading (according to Paul this is about Jesus):

12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. [2 Samuel 7:12-15]

Kind of interesting, eh?

I don’t really work with children, I’d rather say that I observe parents a lot instead. Particularly, what they say, how they speak of their children, how they behave around them when they go visit someone, relative to what the children themselves are. Obviously this is rather anecdotal. As far as studying psychology and such is, I generally do case study, i.e., looking at one person at a time and seeing how things developed, instead of collecting data.

The things that I would point out the most are these: lying, mutual distrust, unearned approval, unjustified punishment, bad example, hypocrisy.

Most parents lie to their children. It’s often small lies, but small lies can get big. The more you lie, the less the kid believes you. And this is ranging from some psychologically harmful stories and ideas such as “the demons will eat you if you do X”, “if you eat a watermelon seed you’ll have a watermelon grow in you”, etc., to lies about simply how something works, why something happens, why should the child do something. If you use God somehow in the middle of this and make a lie using God’s name (Christians do it, heck, even non-Christians do it), then I would say that is actually the direct breaking of one of the main commandments, i.e., blasphemy. Far worse than a swear word.

This goes into distrust. Distrust is actually the core issue because it’s like man’s gap with God: it’s huge and very difficult to fix, and everything falls apart. If you treat your kid like an idiot, and he later discovers (thanks to the internet, no less) that watermelons do not grow in your stomach, or that birds do not bring kids, he may not respond very well to that implication. Especially if it’s pervasive, as it is in some families I’ve seen. Distrust, of course, can come from other things. And it’s usually two-way. The parent does not trust the kid with anything. The kid does not trust back. I have not seen a family where this did not occur, aside from movies and fiction. I’m sure they exist but I haven’t seen one.

Unearned approval. This is the spoilage issue, when you approve (i.e., send false signals) of things you should not approve. For one, if your kid goes beat up another kid, and you approve it, you send him a message that that is good and OK. I’ve seen this, over and over. The most spoiled kids are these - anything they do, the parent approves. This approval also goes on the parents. If a parent does something, for the kid that implies they approve of it.

Unjustified punishment is the other side. We discussed this earlier. Your kid does something you do not like, you punish without explanation or warning. This usually breeds distrust as well, and often kids learn from this how to lie, how to avoid punishment, and they do not actually learn anything from your warnings.

Bad example/hypocrisy is the classic one. Can’t do much if your parent is just not giving a good example at all, or, even worse, expects from you what they do not do or have not done. This can often generate some extensive problems, say, for instance, the parent dropped out of high school but beats you up for not having all A’s in the most difficult classes and calls you lazy. They may even have a point, but for one, they lack experience with that situation themselves; for another, the child has little reason to believe they can accomplish it when their parent did not. Sometimes this is, in fact, an expression of the parent’s neurosis and trying to relive their life through their kid.

This is why it’s important to have an example that both experienced what we have experienced, but one who did not fail. I.e., Jesus. Hmm, did I just equate Jesus to a parent?

There’s a lot of stuff here. All I will say is that the more I study humanity, the more I’m convinced we’re all sick, in ways we do not even begin to realize. The issue of sin is fundamental and not some arbitrary term God made up. It’s in front of us.

I dabble a lot in the fields of psychology and I’ve been looking into how various disorders typically show up and seem to associate. For one, I spent a while looking into the narcissistic, and it’s one of those things that is very easily transmitted by parenting. I.e., narcissistic parents typically produce narcissistic children. I guess it’s really the “apple doesn’t fall far from the tree” phenomenon. Same goes with parents who have a bullying attitude towards their children, etc. Things like NPD and such are also nearly undiagnosable, and most parents I’ve seen have some traits pertaining to it.

I wouldn’t be particularly surprised if 90% of ancestral sin was, in fact, simply being exposed to life on Earth in one way or another.

Excellent post Bird -

Will have a ponder - and I need to think about a question you asked earlier that was connected to St Iraneus, and I’d like to say something for you about the idea of Original Innocence, different from Original Blessing and something I don’t agree with. This entails a sentimentality about childhood that is a degraded form of Romanticism and was in evidence with the Hippies and today in some forms of New Age Thinking (it’s the cult of the wounded child that doesn’t stack up, doesn’t protect and nurture real children, and is more about adults indulging themselves (if I put this into words it may become clear what I’ve got a hunch for here, and what I think we’ll agree on once I’ve expressed it clearly enough - so hold your horses!).
Will post a reply soon (and inform you in your Introduction thread in case this thread keeps moving on).

And - hey, for the moment we can just talk all around the subject of Original Sin higgledy piggledy; we can do some sorting later (and it might take some time). Sorry to have done so much flip flopping!

All the best

Dick

And by the way Bird - the degraded romanticism about childhood of which I am thinking is just not where you are coming from in your posts which are informed by a genuine and clear insight into real children in the real world. Just need to ‘do the math’ before I rush into print about the degraded form. So will ponder.

All the best

Dick :slight_smile:

Bird, in this one line, kind of sums up, for me at least, pretty much how I think about this whole issue of Ancestral Sin / Original Sin - as I’ve said on this thread, I’m not sure yet that I really ‘get’ the difference. But hopefully this conversation will help me learn. :slight_smile:

My personal belief - which I guess is pretty orthodox, in many ways - is that we are inherently ‘sinful’. That we cannot help doing things that are ‘sinful’. As a believer in evolution, I think we are genetically programmed to behave in certain ways, many of which the church, the world, whoever, classifies as ‘sinful’. Now this is not to deny that we have any ‘free will’ in determining how we actually behave – I am not a strict determinist like, say, the materialist philosopher Daniel Dennett, who (I think) asserts that we have no option to behave other than we do in anything we do (because we inhabit a completely closed system, where every action or event is purely the inevitable consequence of a preceding action or event).

But I do think that our genes (Ancestral sin?) – combined with our upbringing – create a very strong ‘inherited’ tendency to sin. And this, I believe, is what the Biblical notion of Original Sin is actually all about.

Don’t know if any of you guys have come across the work of the American anthropologist Robert Ardrey, who articulated in his books *The Territorial Imperative *and *African Genesis *the so called ‘killer ape’ theory – ie that humans have inherited a tendency to violence and aggression from the apes from which we are descended. Now I haven’t read Ardrey myself – I came across his ideas in connection with the movies of Stanley Kubrick and Sam Peckinpah, as part of a course I took at University – and I’m not sure I’d agree with him, even though I do believe in evolution.

But in the same way I look inside my own heart and see, as Mick Jagger says, it is black, I look around myself and see so much violence, aggression, cruelty and hatred in the human race, I wonder, where *does *it all come from? (Perhaps I shouldn’t say human race, rather the male members of it, for it is men who do practically all the violence - you just need to go to any English football ground on a Saturday afternoon to see thousands of young men behaving aggressively towards each other.)

Anyway, just some thoughts. So much to ponder here.

And Dick, thanks for your observations on Calvin. I just find it very hard to see the good in his thought, of which I’m sure there must have been plenty, because of the dreadful fruit it has produced ever since, including that you cite in South Africa, for example. Maybe I’ll try and give ‘The Death of Adam’ a go.

And no problem re ‘Lord of the Flies’, I just need to brush up on my reading is all. :slight_smile:

Shalom

Johnny

Excellent post Johnny -

Regarding Bird’s contention that ‘90% of ancestral sin may in fact be the result of simply being exposed to life on earth’, what I really respect about Bird is her courage in holding on to important insights while negotiating the middle ground (the shabbier parts in me tend to want to negotiate a far too easy peace in the middle ground, by way of contrast with her). Because Bird is keeping us focussed on making clear and proper distinctions I think some genuine insights will emerge from this discussion eventually.

Interestingly Bird seems to be speaking of inherited sin mainly in terms of nature while you are speaking more in terms of genetic determinism from nature. Whatever the merits are in the ‘either/or?’, and the ‘both/and?’ cut and thrust of this debate, both can be seen from an Ancestral Sin perspective (which I think I may be beginning to understand through discussion with all on this thread).

With Augustine’s theory of Original Sin, the sin we inherit – whether through nature or nurture – is held against us as by God as a criminal offence in which we participate through our sharing/solidarity in the nature of ‘Adam’. In addition this Original Sin has so corrupted the Image of God in us that God’s grace actually, in a sense, destroys human nature if it is granted rather than renews it

With the Eastern theory of Ancestral Sin, the sin we inherit – whether through nature or nurture – is not held against us as by God as a criminal offence in which we participate through our sharing/solidarity in the nature of ‘Adam’ – it is something that God wants to rescue us, liberate us, heal us from so that our solidarity in the Old Adam is redeemed through our solidarity with in Christ out Victor, the New Adam. In addition the Ancestral Sin theory does not have as its corollary Augustinian ideas that Original Sin has destroyed the Image of God – rather God’s grace completes the image of God in us and enables us to grow from being bearers of God’s image into being sons and daughters of God according in his true likeness, truly reflecting his compassion and glory.

(That is how it’s beginning to seem to me (any comments??). Sure in a sense we can look into our hearts sometimes and see ‘black’ (and ‘Sir’ Mick Jagger should know all about this :wink: :laughing: ) – but the Eastern view is that we should also see the image of God there, no matter who dimly (and, indeed, it is the light from this that points out the darkness in us without leading us to despair).

The link you make of Original Sin to evolutionary theory is very interesting. The Neo-Darwinian heavy trip as promoted evangelically by the likes of Richard Dawkins and Dan Dennett has been criticised for being a rehashed version of Augustine’s Original Sin theology complete with Augustinian hard determinism. For Dawkins – in ‘The Selfish Gene’ – we are at the mercy of our genes whose sole purpose is to survive. These selfish replicators have programmed us like robots in such a way that when we think we are behaving altruistically we are actually just promoting the selfish ends of our genes. Of course Dawkins’ in this book is discussing the legitimate scientific concept of the ‘analytic gene’. However. I think the moral philosopher Mary Midgeley who writes so clearly, so wisely and so humanely about these issues is right in saying that Dawkins gets completely carried away by his ‘giddying up-draughts of rhetoric on this matter. He has just reinvented the poetry of Augustinian pessimism and his closing sentence in the ‘Selfish Gene’ which argues that human beings alone are empowered to rebel against the selfish replicators that genes are’ – is lost in a fog of contradictions.

All the best

Dick

P.S. I raise a side issue as a footnote. Does belief in Ancestral Sin mean that the Eastern Church is Universalist? That’s a rhetorical question – we know it means nothing of the sort. Universalism as expounded by the Origen and by the much respected Doctor of Orthodoxy Gregory of Nyssa only has the status of theologoumena", or private - but allowed - theological opinion (as opposed to doctrines formally proclaimed by an ecumenical church council) There is a type of Eastern Christianity that stresses the real possibility that we might be lost eternally through our not responding to God’s love (but will also stress that the ‘fire’ that torments the ‘lost’ is not a special fire of torturing wrath – no, the fire that torments the lost and the fire that inspires the saved is one and the same, experienced differently according to the nature formed in us by the choices we make. However, there is another tradition of wide, and too wide, influence in the Eastern Church – this is the belief in ‘aerial toll houses’ (I quote from Wikipeida here - but have seen this information corroborated in the book I refer to below):

‘Aerial toll houses refers to a controversial teaching held by some Eastern Orthodox Christians, about the immediate state of the soul after death. According to this doctrine, “following a person’s death the soul leaves the body, and is escorted to God by angels. During this journey the soul passes through an aerial realm, which is ruled by demons. The soul encounters these demons at various points referred to as ‘toll-houses’ where the demons then attempt to accuse it of sin and, if possible, drag the soul into hell.”

This teaching is extensively alluded to in hagiographical and other spiritual texts of the church, though it has never been formally promulgated by any ecumenical council and so remains in the realm of "theologoumena’’. Many Orthodox saints and theologians have openly endorsed it, while other bishops and theologians have condemned it as heretical

So unfortunately belief in the toll houses as a “theologoumena” means that is has the same status in the Eastern Church as Universalism. However, I note from having read the standard and rather bullish work on Ancestral Sin written for Western readers by Orthodox scholars –‘The Ancestral Sin’ by John S. Romanides and George S. Gabriel – that this teaching arose in the fourth century and those Orthodox fathers who see it as anathema believe it has a Gnostic/Manichean origin, and may indeed be influenced by Augustinian ideas (Augustine was not without admirers in the East).

You bring up an interesting issue with evolution. As someone with an interest in psychology, I have very big gripes with evolutionary psychology. Evolutionary psychology when applied seems to instantly turn into some pseudo-horoscope style guessing on what man should do. The problem is, evolution “doesn’t work like that”, evolution is not directional, it does not have a purpose, it’s full of emergent behavior, evolution is not smart, evolution does not prescribe what we should actually be doing, evolution seriously does not influence that much.

Yet, I’ve heard anything ranging from “it’s OK for men to cheat because they’re naturally built to have sex with as many females as possible” to “we are naturally programmed to enjoy killing each other, it’s just social stigma preventing us from doing so” (I spent half-an hour debunking this one). Further various ideas on social structures how the strong should defeat the weak in capitalism and we shouldn’t have social programs and rich people are the high rollers and so on. Darwin, who was a Christian early on, and drastically against using his ideas to generate this “darwinism” movement, is rolling in his grave. Little did these people knew that by generating and excusing so much injustice, they’re driving people again to the realization that something within them can distinguish justice and injustice (C.S. Lewis argument), and it is stronger than the basic drives, and can push someone right back into Christianity (which is very big on filling valleys, first shall be last).

I, of course, hold a very different view, which is grounded closer to theories of real psychologists, as well as people who worked with special cases like Jung. And in psychology, if you tell someone that “everything man does is nature” (which is evolution), they’ll laugh at you, because nature vs nurture is a huge debate and still largely a mystery. Developmental psychologists and others developed various theories, some of which are actually biased, some of which shed some light on why man can alternate between natural and nurture stuff (Maslov’s pyramid shows some interesting interactions). And while nowadays atheism and evolution movement has almost buried true philosophy, which was a staple of ancient Greece, we still have our share in people like Ralph Waldo Emerson and so on.

The Eastern Church seems to believe in stagnant afterlife as the official Church, but it seems like their own saints hold very different opinions half the time. :laughing:

Tbh, I think this sounds… stupid. It’s the same as Divine Comedy rubbish. I also heard a different version (from someone’s book I think) where he said there was some wicked woman, who never did anything good ever (I am seriously doubtful such people even exist but w/e) except give someone an onion. So she is given the onion to hold on to while being thrown in the Lake of Fire, and whoever is already in the Lake of Fire is pulling her down, while an angel is pulling her up by the onion. And when she tried to kick off the arms that were pulling her down (because she was wicked, no less), the onion crumpled.

So I’m reading all these descriptions and I’m like “Seriously people?” I will not for a second believe this is anything rather than man’s stupid fantasies, and, honestly, it takes a special kind of person to write this kind of stuff. It again comes back to these negative descriptions on God where God tries to keep man in terror and trip him up at every point. There are two reasons one can do such a thing: the evil way, where he trips people up to screw with them and send them to Hell; the good way, where a coach would trip you up to make sure you’re in good shape and ready to go. I believe in the God of the latter. The God who made humans just to scare them for no reason to me seems unspeakably evil. Even a negative judgment would still be followed by the divine attributes of God.

Great post, Bird. Have you actually studied psychology, because you have some very profound insights into what is for me a truly fascinating debate, ie nature vs nurture, but about which I am largely and sadly ignorant. As I’ve said, I believe in evolution, and I do think at least part of how we behave is down to our genetic programming. But I also believe that we are massively influenced by our upbringing and environment. But then I *also *believe, with Lewis, as you point out, we have a God-given conscience which can override either nature or nurture.

All I can say to that is a resounding ‘Amen’!

Shalom

Johnny

Ditto Bird - excellent post. Don’t have a lot of time at the mo. but will respond properly sometime tomorrow. And ditto - you do have great insight into human psychology (and thanks so much for rasing this as a legitimate area for us to talk about). Brief word on Aerial Toll house- yes what a ridiculous idea!! What a very stupid idea :laughing: It would be a purely laughing matter if it had not terrified people for generations in some sectors of the Eastern Church. I’m glad I heard about it or I would be getting a seriosly distorted and romantic picture of our sisters and brothers in the Christian East and theproblems they struggle with!

What an equally daft story that is about the woman and her onion! But it’s still a good one for providing insight.

But will give proper feedback tomorrow - there’s lots of stuff you bring up about Evolutionary Psychology, Darwin, and Jung that I can relate to.

Bird and Johnny would apprecitate feedback myself on one thing - the distinction I made between Original Sin and Ancestral Sin in my last post; is getting any easier to make a proper distinction? Did anything I wrote make sense? I don’t think we’ll be satisfied with a distinction until this thread has run for a bit longer - but I’ve chanced my arm at an interim definition.

As I said, I’ve read ‘The Ancestral Sin’ - and I found it a very difficult book that I soon sold. I got the conceptual jist but it didn’t completely free my imagination by any means. Always forgive Dick his bookishness. One of the big reasons we are sharing here is to help and support each other in detoxifying our imaginations and opening our hearts to a broader vision. Information isn’t everythign - but it can help. You are helping me enormously.

Cheers

Dick :slight_smile:

Johnny sorry to be flippant about Mick Jagger but I was a bit of an art school type punk when young :sunglasses: – but not one of those Mohican barbarians - and we were all rebelling against the likes of Sir Mick (I hated Punk’s speedy drift towards nihilism but I loved the X-Ray Spex and dear old Polly Styrene – who also got cheesed off with the nihilism and wrote very witty songs about consumerism and alienation and used her loud voice as a weapon to get the message across – and l Ioved/love Reggae ( but not keen on modern Reggae). It was a welcome holiday from being bashed over the head with large chunks of Francis Schaeffer at church!!! :laughing: .

The reason I’m sorry is that my flippant remark, unfortunately, was in the context of a very serious point you were making. That you know you are a ‘sinner’ and see yourself as ‘painted black’ inside. I’ll give you my thoughts on this now.
In her Introduction Bird asks a question about a verse 5 from Psalm 51, often quoted in defence of the Augustinian view of Original Sin:

‘Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in guilt(or ‘sin’ in some translations) did my mother conceive me.’

(Bird pointed out the variation in translations to me). I note that this comes from one of the seven Psalms that Catholics call the penitential psalms and Protestants call the psalms of repentance. These psalms are an outpouring of grief at personal sin and have traditionally been ascribed to King David, composed by him in recognition of his grievous having sent Uriah the Hittite into the think o battle to be killed to clear David’s path to Uriah’s wife Bathsheba (an awful and fearful example of the sin of covetousness played out).

This is the same David who played his harp and danced without inhibition, joyfully before the Ark of the Covenant (and God was well pleased with this). David was a Royal Person, beloved of God – but this didn’t mean that he was perfect. My view is that this psalm is speaking about a particular and desolate mood of alienation from God, and the intensity of its language is extreme to mirror an extreme mood of alienation. So its language should not be used as a cornerstone of sound biblical doctrine, but rather viewed as hyperbole.

Of course the psalm can also be seen as testifying to the doctrine of Original Sin but I note that many people who affirm this doctrine – Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant, and some of them notable Christian writers - actually don’t mean it in the full blown Augustinian sense. They simply mean that we are born, or quickly become, creatures who – as well as being made in the Image of God – have an inbuilt tendency towards sin; therefore we are in need to God’s grace through Christ and always must be forgiving and longsuffering of each other’s failings.

There is a beautiful passage from the Greek version of the Old Testament which is much loved in the Church of the East (at least the ‘non aerial toll house’ parts of it) and it has to be a hit with Western Universalist –

For you love all things that exist,
And detest none of the things that you have made,
For you would not have made anything if you had hated it.
How would anything have endured if you had not willed it?
Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved?
You spare all things for they are yours,
O Lord, you who love all things.
For your immortal spirit is in all things.

(The Wisdom of Solomon 11, 12.1)

So in this reckoning we are, as Bird has stated elsewhere, ‘Royal People’; loved by God from the first, like King David. The problem with this passage for Evangelical Universalists is that it is placed in the Protestant Apocrypha because the Book it is taken from –The Wisdom of Solomon - is not found in Hebrew manuscripts of the Hebrew Testament. It seems to have been written in Alexandria sometime in the two hundred years before the birth of Jesus by a Greek speaking Jew. However, for the Protestant it can be seen as having a higher status than some of the other apocryphal literature. You see it seems very likely indeed that St Paul, a Greek Jew, draws upon ‘The Book of the Wisdom of Solomon’ in his letters (compare Romans 9: 21 – 23 with Wisdom 12: 12-18; an compare Ephesians 6: 11 – 17 with Wisdom 5 17- 20) and that it is echoed elsewhere in the New Testament. And anyway, the Wisdom theme – expressed with such clarity and beauty in the above passage, is very much present in canonical books of the Hebrew Testament, and in the New Testament Jesus often speaks using wisdom themes and is spoken of in terms of Wisdom symbolism. I think the Wisdom theme is worth exploring further and I think I can discern as central to George MacDonald’s theology.

I’m a real depressive by nature, so I naturally home in on the Penitential psalms and am tempted to make them the basis for my interpretation of scripture. However…

I’m sure when you look within’ even in your most Augustinian moments’ you don’t just see darkness. There is light illuminating this darkness for you – because you do believe in freewill, so there has to be a part of you that can respond to Grace. And, I’m sure you don’t just see a pit of depravity and violence when you look within; the light isn’t solely there to reveal your darkness. It’s well apparent – at least from our conversations - that there are plenty of resources of creativity, curiosity, compassion and justice making inside of you too; and this is the stuff the stuff of God image, which has yet to be perfected in us all (and it will take aeons). And I reckon this is what you actually think – I hope.

In my view, if faith is too concentrated on personalised notions of sin – the Augustinian introspective e conscience, the bloke in the Christian Union prayer meetings I used to go to who would ‘narcissus like’ pray, ‘O Lord, I’m vile!’ :smiling_imp: – is that if this is how we see ourselves, this is how we can view other people and act towards them in accordance with this view. Augustinian stuff has been used to justify all sorts of oppression – on the grounds that oppressive social structures are needed to constrain sin; and we both know about Apartheid theology. I’m aware that the Calvinist preacher in America, John Piper, has said that he used to be racist (and ‘saved’ at the same time). He now realise he was wrong and he and his wife have adopted a black baby girl as a result (poor kid). However, he still thinks that any fight against racism is low down on the list of Christian priorities and should not redirect energies form the more urgent task of evangelising God’s elect. He’s wrong. He wouldn’t have changed his mind about racism is Martin Luther King and not preached the message that black people are Royal People, beloved of God just as much as white people – and this was Wisdom theology. And the fight for social justice and inclusiveness is part and parcel of the gospel because we don’t derive our hope from our division in the old Adam, but from our unity in the New Adam.

(I do have some thoughts about killer Ape theory - read something really interesting relevant t to this -but will leave until another post. The next one I do will be a reply to Bird).

All the best Johnny
Dick

Dick

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and compassionate post, which I found personally very encouraging and uplifting. You bless me with your fellowship (and indeed with all your interesting and challenging posts). Thank you.

The Greek OT passage you quote is indeed lovely, and I will file it away in my mental library of scriptures to treasure.

I do look inside myself and see my heart is black sometimes, it’s true. I know we’re all sinners, so I’m no different from anybody else in that respect. But I’m not so ‘inversely spiritually proud’ (if you see what I mean) that I think of myself as vile all the time, because I don’t. When, by God’s grace, I am doing my best at doing His will, and doing the things Jesus told us to do, I am not oppressed by my own sinfulness. But I’m always mindful of it.

But it’s the bad stuff that seems to be such a fundamental part of me, that actually *is *me, that gets me down sometimes. The besetting sins, the bad habits I have tried and failed my whole adult life to eradicate, the unattractive character traits. Although I do try my best to see the best in other people, I am prone to cynicism, and can have a sharp and sarcastic tongue sometimes, which too often I am too quick to use. I love satirical humour, black humour, but those are weapons which must be deployed with great care.

Perhaps the scripture which resonates the most with me on this subject is Paul in Romans 7 (my emphases):

“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.”

Guess I’m in good company, eh? :smiley: I guess the above throws a little light on why I’m so interested in the whole subject of Original Sin and Ancestral Sin, and the ‘nature v nurture’ debate. I do not in any wish to abrogate responsibility for my own failures as a person. But I would like to try and understand better why I behave the way I do sometimes.

But anyway, that’s enough about me! :smiley: You say you are a depressive by nature. I’m sorry to hear that; you really don’t come across that way at all, if that’s of any consolation. There’s a lot of depression in my family, and I suffer from anxiety myself, and it is sometimes very debilitating, so I can sympathise with you there.

And no worries about being flippant about Sir Mick. I’m actually a bit of an old punk rocker myself (one-time favourite band the Ramones, three of whom, can you believe, are – like dear old Polly Styrene – no longer with us? :frowning: ).

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on Killer Ape theory in due course. But for the meantime, God bless you, sir.

Shalom

Johnny

Johnny that’s so sweet of you to thank me so warmly - you’ve made my day! :smiley:

I really do think I understand you. I may seem as jolly as Old King Cole but - well I might as well tell you my dark secret… When I was young and a fundamentalist I started to suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy- not the falling type, nor the one where you go absent for a bit, but the one where your head scrambles suddenly, you can’t get your words out, and you start seeing visions and getting flooded with emotions out of nowhere. Because of the ‘spiritual warfare’ milieu I was moving in, this was interpreted to me - and I in turn interpreted it to myself - as ‘Satan’ getting at me. And so I kept it to myself for a couple of years, got into plenty of trouble at school for not concentrating (and failed most of my O levels), and generally went round in a right old pickle of anxiety. I think my parents just thought I was a disturbed adolescent and worried a lot about me. In the end I did have the epilepsy diagnosed and started taking the medication and my life became bearable; and exit stage left from fundamentalism for me. I needed the peace and quiet of Quaker meetings to recover after too much high octane religion - and felt very angry and bitter, not just with fundamentalists but with evangelicals for a long time (I’ve changed now). The temporal lobe is the part of the brain that processes emotion and as the fits left me I developed cyclothymia - that’s the mildest form of bi-polar disorder, but it still can be quite debilitating. Again this went undiagnosed for a long time and I think I wrongly interpreted the depressions as spirituals despair and the manic bits - when my brain became overly fertile and thoughts started rushing together - as me coming together again. Now I take medication and have learnt to live with these cycles as my ‘thorn in the flesh’ - as it were; (but do let me know if I ever start talking gibberish on this site - it could mean that I’ve gone too far up in the sky:lol: I think all of this has taught me much (I hope so).

You should take on board suffering from anxiety too, and learn to live with it rather than despair at it (well that’s my advice)

Regarding the quotation from Romans - do look at my earlier post on St Paul the Greek Jew, Hamartia and Law (it gives a differnet perspective on this passage). You quote him thus

Note that Paul’s emphasis is in the climatic sentence - and not at the point that you emphasise. It’s not him who is the problem, it’s the ‘sin living in me’ , something he is confident that Christ our Victor will liberate him from - thus he asks to be rescued from this ‘body of death’ not this ‘body of sin’. And we note that for Paul body - ‘sarx’ – does not mean our living flesh. It means dead flesh (rotting and covered with flies perhaps). It is his metaphor for our total being alienated from God (therefore it is possible opt sin with the intellect and the emotions as well as with our living flesh).

Dear old Polly - yes she died last year having said some lovely and positive things about life and about being grateful for her life and not despairing of humanity when she was in her last days. There was an outpouring of affection for her over the internet. And my other favourite New Wave girl - witty sassy Kirsty MacCool - also died young and died a hero pushing her child out of the way of a speed boat. The only one left is Lora Logic. The Ramones - sorry about the body count there. I liked ‘Sheena is a Punk Rocker’ and ‘Blitzkrieg Bob’ a lot.

Rich blessings on you old chum. There was an Eastern mystic who said ‘Keep your mind in hell and despair not’ And I’d go along with that. Let’s both go along with that.

All the best

Dick :slight_smile:

P.S. The saying ‘Keep your mind in hell, and despair not’ comes from the Russian Orthodox Saint Staretz Silouan. Of him I know nothing, he could have been an absolute terror for all I know :laughing: But I’ve seen his saying quoted twice - and it spoke to me.

Bird - you are top of my list to get back to. But my post to Johnny today reflects things we have already discussed, but in a more thought through form. There are lots of typos in the last paragraph about John Piper and Martin Luther King (hope these make sense - I was in a rush to finish)

All the best

Dick :slight_smile:

if you’ll not mind me being briefly off topic, i wish my girlfriend was a Christian, or a bit more open to it, as she’d be in good company on here, i think. she spent her youth as a punks protesting various evils, and i think she’d enjoy chatting about some of these things here!
maybe one day :slight_smile:

James - yes I think Punks got a really hard time of it by all being tarred with the same brush (and wiht delicious irony, the peopel really threatened by them were old hippies, who had not been cautious about giving offence in their own day - like, arise Sir Jumping Jack Flash :laughing: ). Your girlfriend sounds like a top lass.

Another thought on Romans 7 - I’ll need to think further about this too. There is a clear sense here of ‘sin’ not so much as wilful disobedience/crime but rather as sickness/bondage/frustration that we are being liberated from and one day will be free of in Christ our Victor (I’m still partially stuck in the Augustinian mindset you know). What we call our habitual sin, this sense of being the long term recidivist/re-offender up again before the same judge who with reluctance and irritation sentences us to a night in the cells, perhaps Paul would have referred to as ‘weakness’.

I am mindful of another gem by one of the Eastern Fathers, Evagrius of Pontis (who contributed to the Philokalia - the compendium of Orthodox spiritual practice - and so is much respected as an authority). In his ‘Commentary on the book of Proverbs, speaking of Jesus’ parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus he writes:

‘There was a time when evil did not exist, and there will be a time when it no longer exists; but there was never a time when virtue did not exist and there will never be a time when it no longer exists. For the seeds of virtue are indestructible. And I am convinced by the Rich Man almost but not completely given over to every evil who was condemned to hell because of his evil, and who felt compassion for his brothers, for to have pity is a very beautiful seed of virtue.’
:slight_smile:

Dick

Thanks for your recent posts, and for being so open about your mental health history. As somebody who has suffered on and off from anxiety problems - sometimes very severe - for quite a few years now, it is very helpful to hear the testimony of another Christian who has been through this sort of thing. I think there’s a tendency for some (many?) Christians to ‘hide’ these sorts of issues - anxiety, depression etc - in much the same way that they ‘hide’ their doubts or questions. This can then create a (false) climate where we can sometimes feel like there must be something wrong with us, or with our faith, if we’re not always feeling on top of the world.

I am on medication myself now. When I went to my doctor, who is lovely, and told her all about my symptoms, I also told her that I felt somehow ‘ashamed’ of myself, seeing as how I was a Christian, and hence felt I ought not to be suffering from anxiety. She said that if I had, say, appendicitis, I would go to the doctor and get treatment, and my faith would have no bearing on the matter at all, so why should it be any different just because my problem was mental, not physical. I found that a very helpful perspective.

Anxiety is one thorn in my flesh (I reckon I have quite a few :slight_smile:, but I am gradually learn to live with it. It is not constant, though; it waxes and wanes, as the Lord is gracious enough to bless me with His peace.

Really glad to hear you yourself have come to terms with your own thorn, and indeed that you were able to break free of the fundamentalist straitjacket. Not sure where you yourself stand on the whole ‘Satan’ issue. I would classify myself as strongly agnostic about the adversary being a personal being at all. But whatever he or it is, blaming him or it for one’s mental health problems isn’t very helpful, I don’t think. (That’s a whole other thread there, of course. :slight_smile: )

Thanks for your observations on Romans 7. You are right, I think. The whole thrust of Paul’s argument here seems to be that we are all, as you say, ‘sick’ with sin, in bondage to it. Whatever is really meant by Original Sin or Ancestral Sin or Adam’s curse, call it what you will, it isn’t something we choose to bring upon ourselves. Which if you ask me is a pretty strong argument in favour of UR! If we can’t help being sinful (which we can’t); if we can only ultimately escape the slavery of sin by God’s grace through faith in Christ, and that faith itself is a gift from God, not something we can summon up by our own efforts, then we are, as the Calvinists would say, utterly helpless to rescue ourselves from our life of sin. Only God can do that. And because He is not partial, not a respecter of persons, and because, as the Bible tells us repeatedly, He sincerely wills that all his children be saved, then one day we all will be! :smiley:

I will look at your earlier posts on Paul in more detail when I have time.

Your quote from Evagrius of Pontis is, as you say, another gem. Where do you get them all from?! These Eastern fathers had some jolly good insights if you ask me.

Shalom

Johnny

James

Regarding your ‘off-topic’ remark about your girlfriend, two of the many things I love about this forum are that:

a) You can go off-topic whenever you like, it’s all good!

b) People are as a rule so unjudgemental. Judgementalism is one of the most unattractive traits of Christians generally - certainly Christians of a certain type, and that type tends to be (but isn’t always, of course) the ECT-believing type. I think this is one of the fruits, and one of the proofs, or UR.

Shalom

Johnny

PS Check out Ravi Holy’s introductory post here, and his Facebook profile, if you want to see the epitome of the ex-punk Christian!!! :laughing:

yeah, it’s pretty awesome here! :smiley:
i’ve got Ravi on my FB already, and read his testimony in an old news article. very cool! he wasn’t exactly the socially responsible type of punk, but he’s become one now, in a way!
part of my GF’s problem with religion i think is down to what she was often protesting against…a poor track record of actually doing good in the world. but she seems ok with me, and even encourages me to go to church!

St Silouan (1866-1938) was actually known for his humility, constant prayer and emphasis on love for enemies. Thomas Merton apparently called him “the most authentic monk of the twentieth century”. The retired bishop of Sheffield, Jack Nicholls, spoke about Silouan at our Synod meeting last week, describing him as his favourite saint. +Jack is an Anglo Catholic (a Mirfield man) rather than evangelical, but he did give a clear universalist message, with a strong Eastern Orthodox flavour. Can’t remember it all but, starting from Jacob’s ladder, he referred to Jesus’s descent to hell as planting a ladder there and stated that God could not possibly be satisfied until every last person was rescued. Maybe I should have been an Anglo Catholic - universalism seems uncontroversial for them and it also seems OK for them to see original sin and salvation in EOx terms rather than the Augustinian view which is the norm amongst evangelicals and Roman Catholics. On the other hand, 4 days of A-C worship last week nearly drove me up the wall. Think I’ll stay “EU”…