The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Pantelism, universalism & postmortem punishment

Thanks Davo, I’m grateful for your spirit. And I’m sure in my confusion about what some of your language actually meant, the blinkers of my own reading have prompted misconstruals of your understanding, and my aggressive challenges to what I perceived have left you too feeling like I belittled you and your convictions. And I am sorry for that. Grace be with you.

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No, Origen in not the first to deny it—there are thousands of others who deny it, including myself. There are also even more non-universalists who deny it, including all early anabaptists and many of them even in our day—in spite of the influence of fundamentalism and evangelicalism on modern Mennonites. And of course, those who have been so influenced AFFIRM it, just as fundamentalists and other evangelicals do.

Nowhere is it written that Jesus came and died to save humanity from the GUILT of sin. Rather it is written that He came to deliver us from SIN. He wants people to cease sinning, since the essence of sinning is doing that which harms others or oneself, and God and His Son do not want to see us harming each other.

But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (Matthew 1:20,21 ESV bolding mine)

Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews all give the same reason for Christ’s death—that we might be saved from SIN ITSELF and not merely from the guilt of sin:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Titus 2:14… who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.


There you go… “not the first” my words prove correct.

An honest reading of all that I’ve said will show I have not advocated that salvation was as you say… “merely from the guilt of sin.” Sin’s condition—offense—guilt were all aspects of THE SIN that effected all that in Christ HAVE been done away… again read Jn 1:29; 1Jn 3:5; Heb 9:26.

I affirm Jesus succeeded and saved His people from their sins, as per *Mt 1:21; Lk 19:10 and not only they but all and sundry…

1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Jesus did not fail, being faithful to the end, fulfilling completely his mandate and mission… “not imputing their trespasses to them” — I can’t help but believe fully in God’s comprehensive grace.

Yet the evidence of sin remaining alive & well is evident to all. So in what sense do you say the condition of sin has been done away?

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

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I agree, and that again is the sticking point as far as I’m concerned. I cannot find a way around the facts of 1)obvious sin in the world even after the resurrection and session of Christ and 2) scriptures such as the one you quoted from 1 John.
Those are my thoughts, not coming from an orthodox or evangelical stance in any way.
This is not a criticism of davo’s position, which I find stimulating, but it is a problem. For me.

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This is the one and only time I will address you in this forum.

There is no evidence that the (evangelical) current ‘idea of sin’ has not been dealt with. Your sin is your sin. I will say that again. Your sin is YOUR SIN. What Christ did was to, much to your chagrin, take the rebellion of humanity and through love pronounce that sin as a affront to GOD is no longer existent.

Simple as I can put it and I will not get into a diatribe with you. Good luck in your endeavors.

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Shirley we are talking past one another? (Don’t call me surely haha)
I have only two words for you - actually, a number and a word - 1 John.

1 John ?? God is love?

And I’ll never call you Shirley!

Heaven forbid brother :smile:


As an aside note, and I only say it as it may be a post mortem reality to some of us, Gibson has filed for bankruptcy.

What are your thoughts. PM me if you don’t want to go public. :smiley:

I PM’ed the heck out of you Brad. :wink:

? :flushed:

And I went ahead and forwarded the PM to you, Chad. [oops].


I think Chad expresses it quite well here…

NO ONE is making an argument for the non-reality of sin IN THE SENSE that we all can and do practice wrong, i.e., transgress. BUT the charge and affront or offense of sin that stood over and against humanity in terms of separation from God courtesy of Adam HAS been abolished and removed in Christ — that’s what those previous texts I’ve given speak to.

While folks here talk about theology…and Biblical exegesis…I take a different approach, when I dialogue with other traditions.

What can I experience and bring back to my traditional theological understanding? Which in my case, is Anglo-Orthodoxy and Theosis. So what can I experience:

Yesterday I went to see the Indian holy person Amma, to receive one of her famous hugs. And today I’m off to the Japanese light groups - Johrei and Sukyo Mahikari.

Again, for me - it’s what I can experience.

And for the geeks out there…you can experience this now.

“Of all the judgments we pass in life, none is more important than the judgment we pass on ourselves.”
– Nathaniel Branden

Even if sin were no longer an ‘affront’ or seen by God as an “offense,” it appears that it is still an evil and destructive power, e.g. keeping us as first John says from “fellowship with one another.” For those who believe it’s no longer an ‘affront,’ will there be a future victory over sin’s still flourishing power to damage our lives?

Which I declare the Scriptures affirm such to be the case.

YES… and therein lays the rub, WHICH IS WHY James so instructs believers in dealing with THAT very issue…

Jas 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Confession to one another brings restorative healing from the… “evil and destructive power” sins wreaks upon… “fellowship with one another.

Two-fold… progressively in terms of lifelong sanctification, AND in death itself where… “he who has died has been freed from sin” (Rom 6:7).

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Well… James and John declare such not to be the case:

Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Jesus had already died. And yet James said that the sick who are prayed for and healed will have their sins forgiven. But you say, they are already forgiven through Christ’s death.

John wrote (after the death of Christ):

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But according to you, it would be unnecessary to confess our sins in order to be forgiven. They are already forgiven because of Christ’s sacrificial death. However, in verse 7, John suggests that the blood of Jesus is efficacious only if we walk in the light.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

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The first century Christians needed to confess or UNDERSTAND what was happening. The understanding was crucial, There was an Armageddon coming and Christ wanted to do all he could to show them that his verbiage was real. He did miracles, he forgave sins he did everything he could do to try to show and talk the jews into following him.