The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Pantelism, universalism & postmortem punishment

Theology Eschatology
#129

I would be interested in Davo’s background…before he came to (or “discovered”, whatever the case may be) - the system of Pantelism. Was he a Full Preterist - for example? Then took Full Preterism, to its logical conclusion - Pantelism?

Before Mary Baker Eddy formulated Christian Science, she had experienced some supernatural healings. Then she formulated a system of theology - Christian Science… to share the healing method with others.

Unfortunately, she dismisses the discoveries of modern medicine and science…As well as established healing methods, of the indigenous people (AKA Native Americans) and others.

The key question also remains…what do we do now? For Christian Science, there are practitioners and teachers - to guide folks. Not that I embrace, their non-orthodox theology - mind you. But there are professionals to guide folks. Even for outsiders like me, who embrace Anglo-Orthodoxy;.

Even those embracing the Zombie Apocalypse , as the method of Christian tribulation…use simple and melodramatic YouTube videos…to get their message across.

Perhaps if Pantelism ever grows an audience,… then they would have others, to teach this theological path. It kind of reminds me, when I was hanging out…at the Liberal Catholic Church, for a year or so. Someone mentions that they have the clergy. Now they just need to get a congregation.

What could we do? If we don’t have any theological, or philosophical ethical considerations - to deal with? I wonder?

#130

Clearly Davo is right in saying that the ages to which the apostle refers here are past ages—ages prior to Christ’s coming. Virtually all commentators agree with this position.

However this does not imply that there are no more ages yet to come. Indeed, the same apostle affirms that there are:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved —and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7 ESV)

By the way, I wrote a little chorus based on this passage. Sorry I cannot relay to you the tune, but perhaps a tune will spring to mind.

God, who rich in mercy,
Out of great love with which He loved us,
E’en when we were dead in trespasses
Made us alive together with Christ and raised us up with Him,
Made us sit in heavenly places
That in the coming ages He might show us His grace.

#131

Randy,

I haven’t studied Panelist that much but I believe the scriptures describe the new heavens and earth as starting in 70 A.D. and then evolving progressively since then until it reaches it’s full consummation as described in Revelation. The lake of fire judgment happened in 70 A.D. and therefore the only thing left for us in the new heavens and earth is either the open gates or purgatory. The Bible says that every knee will bow and every mouth confess in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Under the earth is a reference to purgatory. The holy saints and mystics visions of both hell and purgatory confirm this.

#134

If she did go to “hell”, perhaps her visit there would have been momentary, until she confessed that sin.

8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us

#135

Only mortal sins separate one from God and land one in eternal punishment. A mortal sin requires that all of the following conditions are met:

Its subject matter must be grave.

It must be committed with full knowledge (and awareness) of the sinful action and the gravity of the offense.

It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

Only the people in Biblical times hardened their hearts towards God with the intent and motivations of sinning against the infinite God. Their hearts were hardened and evil and their motivations were to blaspheme and belittle and desecrate the infinite worth of God’s glory. The worst sin in Biblical times was a hardening of the heart against God so much that it was called the eternal sin. Nobody in modern times has reached such wickedness. People in the new heavens and earth haven’t reached such depravity because of God’s mercy and grace.

#136

I guess people could have their hearts separated from God’s common mercy/grace before they die. (the sheep and the goats.) The eternal sin happens when ones heart is separated from God’s common mercy/grace. The heart hardens as one’s hatred towards God intensifies. The eternal sin is when one has no desire to love God. That is to say, they don’t want God. All the will ever want to do is hate God and blaspheme and sin because all desire for God is removed. Because of their hardened hearts they would eventually grow accustomed to the living conditions of hell. The will weep at times and gnash their teeth out in anger but their blasphemy continues forever because they have no desire for God. The preterists I’m currently reading hold that hell is eternal and that there are those who die and go there. Some to everlasting life others to eternal punishment.

#137

Since this thread also covers universalism…And I mentioned Christian Science (which I disagree with, by the way)…I thought I will share, this article I’ve found…and quote a bit from it.

“It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light.”-- Aristotle Onassis

"Christian Scientists are all Universalists in their denial of the eternity of evil, their belief in the unity and everlasting beneficence of the divine nature, and in the emphasis which they lay upon love as the saving force in the great work of human redemption. they repudiate the material or substitutional idea of the atonement, and teach that salvation consists in a life of truth and love. The trend of Mrs. Eddy’s teaching is all in favor of Unitarianism as opposed to the Trinitarian idea; and in support of the paternal rather than the magisterial conception of the providence of God. She lays the emphasis where Jesus laid it,—on the divine Fatherhood and the eternal beneficence. And in simple candor it must be confessed that her disciples are a zealous and earnest body of believers who accept the Scriptures as their sole guide in matters of faith and practice, and as a class they are not irreverent or indifferent.

“Life Truth, and Love constitute the triune Person called God.—that is, the triply divine Principle, Love. They represent a trinity in unity, three in one,—the same in essence, though multiform in office: God the Father; Christ the spiritual idea of Sonship; divine Science, or the Holy Comforter. These three express in divine Science the threefold, essential nature of the Infinite. They also indicate the Principle of scientific being, the relation of God to man and the universe” (Revised Edition, p.331).

This, of course, does not mean a personal trinity in the sense that there are three persons embraced in one person, as the term person is humanly applied. Yet it defines at once the Trinity and Unity of the Godhead, but the idea of an anthropomorphic or physical personality is eliminated.

If our Universalist friends accept this definition of the trinity and unity of God, Christian Science and the Universalist Church are in agreement upon the doctrine of the Trinity.

And here is a Christian forum discussion - on Christian Science

Let me quote the question in detail. You can look at the forum answers

  • Why is Christian Science considered unorthodox?

  • How is Mary Baker Eddy’s neo-platonism different from Augustine’s, Aquinas’, Calvin’s, Jonathan Edwards’, et. al.?

  • How is her understanding of the Incarnation different from Scheiermacher’s, Tillich’s, Marcus Borg, et al?

  • How is her view of the sacraments different from the Quakers?

From what I can see, Mrs. Eddy puts together perfectly orthodox views on evil as privation, matter as shadows, and Jesus as Wayshower–just like Meister Eckhardt–and then applies these doctrines to Christian healing.

If evil is a privation of good and has no real existence, isn’t the best way to approach healing to see disease as a privation and not real?

Maybe Jesus healed by removing the shadows which distort our vision of our true nature as God’s children. If God is Spirit, and we are in His Image and Likeness, then doesn’t it follow that we are spirit, and not matter? I’m not sure why Christian Science is a heretical cult since it is rooted in many purely orthodox strands of Christianity, albeit put together in an original, insightful way.

  • Why, then, is Christian Science considered unorthodox if it has orthodox views?

#138

I guess there’s no way for me to know whether or not someone in the infant new heavens and earth has committed a mortal or eternal sin. I can hope and pray that everyone in the new creation makes it. But given the lake of fire judgment in 70 A.D. and the Biblical fact that many in the Bible hardened their hearts in hatred towards the eternal God, I do believe that there are many in hell. The visions of the mystics and saints confirm this.

#139

John’s “ongoing tense” logically demonstrates the FACT that John the baptiser’s words reflect the THEN CURRENT actions of Jesus’ burgeoning ministry, i.e., John describes what Jesus is setting in train and accomplishing… hence the ongoing tense. THEN the writer of Hebrews writing POST EVENT declares the reality of Christ’s mission as having accomplished that task, i.e., past tense — is that not common sense?

And so… what then was THE EVENT where the offence of THE SIN was dealt with ON BEHALF OF ALL with Jesus having TAKEN AND PUT AWAY THE SIN? answer — the CROSS — where ‘The Lamb of God’ (Jn 1:29) ‘by the sacrifice of Himself’ (Heb 9:26) had THE INIQUITY (singular NOT plural), i.e., THE SIN of us all, laid upon Him (Isa 53:6). 101

So the question remains for you to give a CLEAR answer Bob… do you agree that BOTH Jn 1:29 and Heb 9:26 reveal that Jesus HAS TAKEN AND PUT AWAY THE SIN of the world, i.e., at Calvary… very simple, YES or NO?

#140

I believe that the cross puts away sin but the atonement is eternal. The Bible says Christ was slain from the foundation of the world yet it happened some 2000 years ago. The Biblical God is one who acts trans-temporally. When I say trans-temporally I mean across time. Just as the atonement saved people that existed before it happened it also saves millions after it happens. The effects of the atonement happen retro causally backwards and forwards. And the “whole world” is the new heavens and earth. The merism “heavens and earth” means all things. In revelation and Isaiah we see that the lake of fire isn’t included in all things made new. The lake of fire isn’t included in the “whole world” as it describes the new heavens and earth when it reaches it’s consummation.

#141

Davo, Essentially in an important sense, Yes! For the whole point of the questions you keep ignoring is that I assume your perception that texts declare that sin was defeated in the past tense. While I don’t see that Jn 1 uses the past tense, I have repeatedly affirmed to you that Jesus came to put sin away and that several texts use past tense language for the crucified victory over sin that he established. But that such affirmations do NOT mean that the apostles, even after “the sacrifice of the cross,” don’t continue to preach to the lost world that sin and guilt remain, and that faith and repentance for forgiveness are necessary.

Thus my impression is that the early Christian movement was reasonable to read that if they trusted your cited apostolic texts on what the cross had already accomplished, they should also trust and apply the apostles’ understanding of how Jesus’ already past suffering at the cross should be applied to their evangelism.

That’s why I emphasized that it’s appeared to me that you are the one who sees sin being ‘taken away’ (in your definition of that) as remaining future beyond the era of the apostolic church, and who treats the apostles and their preaching as not affirming that the world’s sin was already taken away (past tense) “AT CALVARY.” And since I too find you convoluted, your view that early Bible readers should have deduced that Jesus’ gospel and the apostle’s preached ‘gospel’ to Gentiles was not the right message anymore appears unreasonable.

Thus to understate it, I’m not seeing how my position does less justice than yours to apostolic texts that speak in the past tense of sin as having been overcome, much less to the consistent narrative of all Scripture.

#142

IMO, davo, neither verse says that sin has been taken away. OTOH 1 John 1:8-10 says sin still remains:

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Verse 7 above shows how sin is taken away. That only applies to those of faith, as also revealed in the book of Romans, etc.

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#143

That is good. But Bob you need to look outside the evangelical model and see what is there.:laughing:

#144

LOL You need to look at your non-evangelical model and see what is there… and what is missing :slight_smile:

#145

There is nothing missing, it is just a model, a different way of looking at what people hold dear as yourself. You can agree, or you can say I’ll look into it, or you can say I’ll have no part of it.

Your choice.

Good Luck.

#146

The main thing that is missing is the need for repentance (having a change of heart and mind) and submitting to Christ. You are mistaken in thinking Christ’s magnificent sacrifice on our behalf automatically covers everyone no matter what they do or how they live.

The Lord Jesus said, “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them:do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

Oh yes, I know! He didn’t say those words to you, and so you can ignore them completely!
Well I tell you that they apply to you just as surely as they apply to those to whom He was speaking! If you deny it, why don’t you also deny that He died for you? Maybe his wonderful sacrifice covers only those who were living at the time He sacrificed Himself.

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#147

I agree! As I told davo, while some texts can speak of victory over sin as already established by Christ, ‘taking away’ all sin clearly requires a repentant change in our direction under the power called “sin,” and a continued process to complete such a victory.

My own sense is that insisting that the Bible’s message is that sin itself no longer exists, requires a classically fundamentalist kind of simplistically using selected texts, and dismissing many others. .

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#148

Has the “condition” or “guilt” of unsaved sinners in any way changed since the cross? Is it any different than before the cross? Are psychiatrists in the wrong business & only imagining that their patients suffer from a condition called “guilt” or condemnation?

You say this condition of sin(=guilt) “hung over” humanity. Where was it hanging from? That sounds like it is outside of them, not a “condition” of “guilt” which is normally understood to be within a person. Clearly the experience of such a guilty condition has not been taken away from inside the hearts of the people of the world. Just ask any shrink.

Scripture says there is no condemnation, i.e. no guilt, to those “in Christ Jesus”, not to all the world:

Rom.8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death

OTOH those outside of Christ will face condemnation:

Mt.12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the south will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and now One greater than Solomon is here.

MK.16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

1 Cor.11:31 Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

#149

This is fantastic Paidion… you couldn’t have given a more perfect example of your poor grasping of the text.

Jesus uses a real-life HISTORICAL event they could all relate to and uses the same to give HIS OWN PEOPLE warning of a like impending disaster, i.e., AD70, in the hopes that IF they changed their minds aka “repent” having BELIEVED his words THEY WOULD LIVE!

https://media.giphy.com/media/d0NnEG1WnnXqg/giphy.gif(image larger than 3072KB)

#150

So what? No one doubts that the Bible narrative’s typical picture of God’s judgments on sinners is presented as coming in HISTORICAL events. But it doesn’t follow from citing that, that you can assert that God won’t exercise judgments anymore, or that repentance is no longer called for. Like Paidion, Jesus argues that the past is prologue, and the lesson is that repentance remains vital, even for those who assume that it was only a concern for others.