firedup2K
As a PS I must share this with you. It’s from a gravestone in a Savannah GA cemetery…
[size=150]GOD COULD NOT HAVE MADE EARTHLY TIES
SO STRONG TO BREAK THEM IN ETERNITY[/size]
That speaks volumes to me! Your love for your son is not to be metered and measured and divided out in doses. It is to be lavished without measure!!
TotalVictory
Bobx3
I would very much like to copy this thread to the Introductions category, retitling it for better clarity, while leaving your very first comment up for discussion here in this category.
Once the rest of the thread was safely copied over, I would delete the remarks here–except for any specifically pertaining to your very first piece of comment, if there are any–plus pretty much everything in your opening comment after the first little bit (which itself I would also delete in the copy for the Introductions category.) I would then leave links with a brief explanation of the original content of your post and the thread as a whole, for interested parties to follow over, both here and at the new thread in Introductions. (That way, people who are used to following what amounts to an Introduction thread here can easily find it there by going here first; and anyone reading the Intro thread can easily come back here.)
The end result would be that this particular thread would be prepared again for discussing the issues in the very first part of your opening comment (plus links to the personal introduction and its subsequent discussion); while you would also have a properly sorted and labeled Introduction thread for new readers to find and read and continue discussion on, too (with links back to this thread.)
Is that okay with you, FiredUp?
Dear Bob,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I finally had a chance to read your introduction page. I can definitely identify with your former struggle with the traditional view of hell.
I am happy for you and your family. I appreciate the joy which bleeds through your testimony. I find these comments particularly compelling:
I have noticed that as I consider UR I look at people, in this apparently unbelieving world, differently. So many of the people around me deny Christ. I know I am supposed to reach out to them and love them, but it always seems like most of them will not turn to Christ in this lifetime. Therefore, I always struggle with how sincerely I am to love them. Should I view them as potential or future brothers in the Lord? Or should I view them as potential or future enemies who will one day crucify me as quickly as they would crucify my Lord?
With UR it still may be true that many of the nonbelievers I meet will prove to be enemies of God in this lifetime and may be the very ones who persecute me as a Christian. However, with UR I have the assurance that they will be brothers one day and therefore I can begin to look at them as such now. With this in mind I may echo the words of Christ, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do” with full sincerity, knowing these words agree with God’s disposition and intentions. More than that, when I preach this wonderful story of the cross I can do so with the scope of an Arminian and the certainty of a Calvinist.
I am curious: your view of the atonement seems to have shifted since you came to embrace UR:
Why did Jesus die? Why was the cross necessary to obtain our salvation? Why was it so violent and bloody? What exactly did it accomplish?
Good stuff, Firedup (I’m really enjoying your contribution to this forum, btw). This new and radical way of viewing nonbelievers is one of the first things I began to notice as well when my paradigm began to shift and the reality of God’s sovereign and unfailing love for the whole of Adam’s race began to sink in.
Yes yes! This is one of the very first things I noticed too and soon after joining here I wrote about it over on the “Christian Living” section. How UR Should Change Us.
Of course it now occurs to me that one need not necessarily move from a belief in UR to a conviction that I am to treat each and every person as if I will live with them forever as friends. For it seems just as likely and possible for one to move in the other direction as well. That is, it seems clear that from simply observing the life and actions of Christ one can easily see that this is how Jesus lived. Then, from that conviction of the worth of others, it’s a short step to the embrace of UR as the eventual destiny for all.
Which of course is NOT to say I’ve nearly perfected that habit of seeing and treating all like I should… 
TotalVictory
Bobx3
That of course, firedup2K, is a massive question and one which is brought up often on this site and in many different contexts!
For example, my most recent thoughts on the matter are in the context of a question asked by Dondi in the thread titled THE MESSIAH THAT COULD’VE BEEN over in the Biblical Theology section…
Curious that you see a “shift” in my atonement theology since my embrace of UR. Unless by “shift” you could mean a deepening and broad understanding. For example, am reading the book titled STRICKEN BY GOD which was recommended to me by someone here. (It is a compilation of essays and edited by Brad Jersek) And In the chapter titled GOD’S SELF-SUBSTITUTION AND SACRIFICIAL INVERSION by James Alison he makes the startling charge that most Christian views of the ancient sacrifice ritual so prominent in our collective Christian imagery and theology are far more like that of the ancient Aztecs than of the view of Jesus Himself. He proposes that we have everything backwards from what Jesus intended. That the sacrifice was not to appease God – but was God’s unilateral act to appease and satisfy OUR anger and hostility and resentments and thereby to resolve OUR estrangement. God had to demonstrate the true nature and horror sin so that there would never ever be even a “reasonable” doubt. He needed to unmask OUR true selves to US! But further, He needed to unblind OUR eyes as to HIS true nature and to the utter impotence of death and the complete potency of Himself… Heavy stuff indeed…
But to me the core insight from the UR view is that it’s pretty easy to establish that the death of Christ was intended for, and to be beneficial to, ALL. Short step then to UR it seems.
(But this may be headed away from the intent of this thread…)
TotalVictory
Bobx3
I very much want to add some comments here, too; but it won’t probably happen this week. Hugely appreciative of this thread, though!
Fired, I’ve changed the title of the thread to something a lot more accurately descriptive of the contents. If you do want to go back to discussing the lake of fire and the absence of an explicit text showing people being saved out of it, I recommend creating a new thread and starting over from there. (Sorry.)
This (as you probably recall) is extremely close to how I understand the sacrifice on the cross, too. (Although I would go even farther in connecting it with God’s own self-sacrificing love being the foundation for all existence, including God’s own essential self-existence.)
It’s worth noting that this idea runs exactly in line with how “reconciliation” and “propitiation” are grammatically used in the canonical New Testament (and the OT, too, to at least some extent), which in turn runs absolutely against the typical pagan notion that God is the one Who has to be convinced to lean toward us or to smile upon us or to reconcile with us.
Jason,
Yes, retitling this thread from “Conspicuous by Its Absence” to “Personal testimonies regarding UR” is fine. One of my last posts in the "Redemption from the lake of fire? " thread referenced “Conspicuous by Its Absence” so I put another post there to mention the title change.
I should have an “Introduction” thread ready soon too. 
Thanks for helping to keep things organized.
Hi firedup2000. I’ve been offline for a few weeks so please pardon me if I rehash information others have already covered. I’ve only read the thread up to this post.
Though 1st century Rabbis believed that for most people, Gehenna was a place of Remedial Punishment, the argued as to whether or not the especially wicked, the un-redeemable, would be annihilated in Gehenna or possibly continue to suffer there indefinitely long. In this passage, I believe that Jesus is simply seeking to inspire people to fear/respect God far more than they do fear/respect people, recognizing that God brought us into existence and God can can us out - if He chose to do so. This passage is not intended to say God will blow anyone out of existence, but it is meant to help us recall that our very existance is due to and sustained by Him!
I believe Gehenna was used as a metaphor to speak of punishment that comes from God whether in this life or the one to come. God is not only active in our lives in the future, but also in the present.
Check out the thread on Gehenna. evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=175&start=0
I believe that judgment is meant to help us repent - the fire of truth, well, burns the hell out of us. Healing, deliverance, and restoration can only come through coming to grips with the truth about ourselves, the truth about how we’ve actually lived, the truth about what we’ve done with the opportunities, talents, revelation, relationships, etc., even challenges that God has blessed us with. Judgement is an eternal reality, the more we embrace it in this life, the more our lives are changed and the less fear judgment will have for us in the life to come. Jesus did not come to condemn, but to save; and a big part of that salvation is judgment, where we face the reconning of truth concerning ourselves.
In fact, as believers, I believe that we are held to even a higher standard of judgment for we should know better. Our hearts have been received the love and forgiveness of God and thus we are all the more accountable to Him to walk in love and forgiveness towards others. We’ve received the revelation of the atonement and thus are responsible to live in that love towards others. If we do not, we in essense tread upon the atonement and will suffer all the more for our disrespect of God because we should know better. Of course, Paul even speaks of turning a brother over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit might be saved. Paul does not specify whether or not that destruction was for this life or the next; and I suspect that it was both! This brother would suffer terribly in this life and the next until he repented.
Dear Sherman,
Revelation 1:8 “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
I want to make sure I understand you correctly. I believe in Jesus and am trusting in Him for my salvation. Yet I still struggle with fear, anger, lust, idolatry, etc. I repent and I believe Christ is transforming my life gradually. But every day I see how far short I fall of His glory. I see how shallow was my repentance. I see other things I need to repent of that I failed to consider before. My life is imperfect. My heart is imperfect. My repentance is imperfect. (Isn’t this the lot for all Christians?) Will I need to be thrown into the lake of fire, along with unbelievers, before I can enter heaven?
Actually, I believe, you, I, we are experiencing the lake of fire now, as God purifies and cleanses us. We have a tendency to worry so much about the future and yet all we have is the present. God’s presence, especially as revealed through the atonement, purges us from all iniquity. As we encounter the fire of His presence, we are purified, healed, delivered from all ungodliness. As we embrace the judgment of God concerning ourselves, we embrace the forgiveness and love of God for us. It’s not so much about us getting into heaven as it is about getting heaven into us. With God, judgment flows from His love for us. Why fear the future when we know that it is in the hands of God who loves us! All of these warnings concerning judgment and remedial punishment are meant to bring positive changes in us in the present.
Hmmm… I agree that there are many times that life feels like a “lake of fire” and I am in the midst of the “smoke of torment”. I can see how the chastisements of life have played a role in bringing me to faith. However, I thought once I die there will be no more punishment. Not because the fire of life has purified me completely, not because I have repented completely, and not because my faith is perfect, but because I am trusting (albeit feebly) in the perfect Christ whose blood will perfectly purify me.
It seems as if you are saying that life and/or the lake of fire serve as sort of a purgatory. I’m sure we would agree that God can allow no sin into heaven. I can see how life and/or the lake of fire can bring us to trust in Christ’s perfect righteousness. However to believe these things will purify us to the point that we become perfectly righteous (or have perfect repentance or faith) would seem to devalue the worth of the cross.
To me, judgment is a reconning, a coming to grips with the truth concerning ourselves. It is the fire of truth that purifies us. It’s like Isaiah’s encounter with the Lord where a coal from the altar was put to his lips and purified him. It not only purified him, but it empowered him to stand in the presence of the Lord. He encountered the truth concerning himself and all whom he loved and was undone, waisted in the presence of the Lord. We only tap a little into the power of judgment in this life, and will only come into the full liberating power of judgment in the life to come. Truth causes in us both weeping (repentance) and even gnashing or grinding of teeth (terrible, even angry remorse). Any punishment or chastisement that is necessary in this life or the life to come to help us in reconning with our sins is truly and perfectly remedial, not vindictive. Jesus took upon hiself all of the necessary punishment of sin from a judicial aspect. The wages of sin is death, destruction, even annihilation, but the gift of God is eternal life. Jesus’ sacrifice not only overcomes the just ramifications of the sin of Adam, but the just ramifications of all sins since that original sin. Faith in the sacrifice of Christ enables, empowers us to bring a little of the forgiveness, cleansing, healing, deliverance of heaven into our lives today, and only promises more for the life to come.
So if we all must face remedial punishment in the next life, is there anything definitive that can be said about what the ‘saved’ will face vs. what the ‘unsaved’ will face? After reading “The Evangelical Universalist” it seemed clear that at least MacDonald believes the saved will not face the lake of fire while the unsaved will. If not, what are the those “saved” in this life saved from in the next life?
Passing through very briefly (well, very briefly by my standards… 
) : but I understand the distinction being one of cooperation or else a continued insistence on not cooperating. (Calv and Arm soteriologies typically come down to the same thing, in different ways–a continued insistence on not cooperating with God.)
Our God is a consuming fire, and the Holy Spirit is the only fire that can rightly be called unquenchable. As that pop-cultural Christian youth charismatic and evangelical show likes to put it, we’re supposed to be acquiring the fire. Are we working with the fire or against it?
If against the fire, then the fire will be wrath against us as well as against our sins (as even Calvs and Arms agree in various ways). If with the fire, then the fire will only be against our sins. It’s another way of talking about our relationship to the Holy Spirit.
Put briefly, those who continue to fondle their sins (as the Greek puts it) in RevJohn, are still acting against the fire. The Bride/Church exhorting them to slake their thirst and wash their robes etc., are cooperating with the fire: the Holy Spirit, Who is the unquenchable fire, is saying “Come!” In one sense the Bride could be said to be outside the lake of fire (maybe standing on top of it, as earlier imagery in RevJohn puts it, practically though not explicitly saying they have come out of the lake of fire); but in another sense the Church of the Bride is in the Fire and the Fire is in them, vastly moreso than the ones who are still fondling their sins.
That won’t be a crisis for us; it will be a crisis for them.
(But, Jesus’ notion of who exactly counts as “us” and “them” may be very surprising and even shocking. His notion is also the only notion that ultimately counts. 
I accept this to mean that I had better be prepared to find Him accepting everyone else except me, the chief of sinners. The safest thing seems to be to rejoice in the judgments of God against myself. He who tries to save his soul, yet he who loses/destroys his soul for the sake of Christ and for His name and for the gospel, etc.)
In my third novel (not yet published, so I’ll try not to be too spoilish about the plot), I try to illustrate what I’m talking about in an important scene about 2/3 through the book: a righteous man grieving against his own sins, such as they are, wishes death for himself, and God grants his wish. The man wakes from the destruction he had prayed against himself, lying in a bright fog on snow apparently made of light–he could feel the light growing around him as he is praying, and in his grief against his sins he had prayed for it to burn him to ash. He soon realizes that the fog and the feathery snow are actually the fire of God (although he doesn’t recognize the fire as being the Holy Spirit, not having our categories of thought on the topic.)
The guardian angel of his people, whom he (and his people) had feared had abandoned them, has wakened him to have a talk with him, to reassure him about several things–but also to test just how far this man is willing to accept the judgment of God against his sins. Because he hadn’t yet really faced the depth of his sin; he had made a start of it, but he was still avoiding facing up to some of it.
When the angel challenges him with the full extent of his crime, the man has a choice about where he would prefer the fire of wrath to fall–one choice of which is that it should fall on the angel for telling him a truth he would rather not have heard! Instead, although tempted to do otherwise, he calls the wrath of God against that sin upon himself. Consequently, the Spirit is not fire to him but light; and he is sent back to life with a commission from God to get off his butt and start taking responsibility for living and dying to find and give hope to other people, rather than daffing his responsibility so that other people will take that risk in his place. (Soon afterward he leads a brother of his to repentance and the acceptance of God’s salvation, when his brother could only see condemnation for himself.)
Persistently impenitent sinners in the story, though, once their bodies have died, perceive the Holy Spirit as an ocean of fire burning them–an ocean either firey black (representing the squinting shut of their own spiritual eyes against the light), or blindingly bright (with truth that they are sort-of trying to see but still want to twist to their own supreme advantage.)
In all this I am trying to illustrate a notion common (though not universal, insert irony here ) among Calvs, Arms and Kaths alike, about our relationship to God affecting how we perceive the action of God toward us, especially the action of the Holy Spirit. But while our subjective perceptions of God’s action may vary, the action itself objectively remains the same: for God is love, and does not have two minds about us.
Some quick links to Teen Ministries/ATF, by the way:
While loud stadium rock is far from my thing, I was quite impressed by the show I chaperoned several years ago. As I told some people afterward, it was like watching volcanoes and thunderstorms worshiping God. 
(Their program that year in Nashville was also jussssst slightly evocative of universal salvation. 
I could tell that the writers of the stage drama that progressed over the weekend had at least CS Lewis in mind; maybe Lewis’ teacher MacDonald, too.)
I believe that we as believers will face the judgment just like unbelievers do. We’ll face the truth concerning what we’ve done with what we’ve been given (talents), the truth concerning how many opportunities we’ve missed because of not being diligent and prepared, the truth concerning what we’ve done when given leadership power and authority, the truth concerning how we have treated people, and we’ll also face the truth of how much God loves us. As will all of humanity.
The difference between we believers and unbelievers is that we’ve already embraced some of this and have already began receiving the healing and forgiveness of God and are already being delivered from sin. And instead of walking in sin, we’re empowered to walk in righteousness. Instead of only walking according to the flesh, we can instead walk in obedience to the Spirit. Instead of living life under the law, we live in right relationship with God and one another.
Also, instead of being afraid of death and future condemnation, we’re assured of salvation in Christ and are freed from the fear of death. We have a tendency to focus so much on the future, afraid of the future, that we often fail to embrace the reality of the present. Jesus spoke to this when He reminds us to not worry about tomorrow because the evil of today is enough for us to handle. Sadly, traditional Christianity has been reduced to avoiding hell and going to heaven, when Christianity should be about the present reality of Jesus in our lives, the present reality of being forgiven by God, empowered to think and live right, etc. Sadly, evangelism is traditionally all about getting people to accept Christ so as to avoid Hell, when in reality it’s about encouraging people to have faith in Christ and thus be delivered from the present reality of not having a relationship with God, perishing and being destroyed, hurting and hurting others, in bondage to sin and the fear of death, etc.
Hi Jason,
Thanks for your previous post. I look forward to reading your book. Jesus did come to baptize us in fire! Hallelujah! Fire consumes what is not lasting and purifies what is lasting. May our lives be filled with gold, silver, precious jewels that are only purified by fire!