The passage Philippians 2:9-11 (as part of 2:5-12) is often cited as a UR text, on the understanding that ‘confess’ in verse 11 means (voluntary) praise. From NIV, my underlining:
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
The wording of verse 10 is ‘should’ as distinct from ‘will’ (in either case applying to the actions in both verses 10 and 11), unlike the parallel OT verse, Isaiah 45:23 (NIV):
… Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
So on this NIV translation, arguably the Philippians passage could be taken as a picture of what should happen (in terms of all people rightly coming to honour Jesus), as distinct from what will happen. This might seem a rather picky point concerning just one word, but at face value it seems potentially to undermine the UR interpretation and this has been niggling me …
Perhaps translation issues are at play here. Of the other Bible translations I have checked, the wording of verses 9/10 is again ‘should’ in some cases, ‘may’ in others, and actually ‘will’ in the GNB. Presumably the Greek wording is relevant to clarifying this, but I don’t have the Greek knowledge to pursue that! - perhaps others could advise?
Also, perhaps the ‘should’ wording underlies a point which Howard Marshall expresses as a reason for disagreeing with the UR interpretation of the passage, in the book Universal Salvation: The Current Debate, Chapter 4:
“The statement [Philippians 2:9-11] is one of purpose, and it does not necessarily follow that the purpose will be fulfilled. The point is simply that God intends that Christ shall have the same honour from all people as that to which he himself is entitled.”
He does not spell this out further in terms of the wording of the passage, though, so I might be mistaken.
I don’t think I have seen this point - and/or Marshall’s point if different - addressed anywhere and would much value comments from forum members in response.
This passage is not quoted in Philippians 2:9-11. Rather it is quoted in Romans 14:11
As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.
Indeed, the Greek translated as “Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God” in Romans 14:11 is IDENTICAL to the Greek in the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 45:23. That’s because all New Testament quotes of the Old Testament are probably quoted from the Septuagint.
Here is the Greek clause which is identical in Rom 14:11 and Isaiah 45:23
ὁτι ἐμοι καμψει παν γον και πασα γλωσσα ἐξομολογησεται τῳ θεῳ
I would like to point out also that in Philippians 2:10 it’s incorrect to take the English word “should” and assume it means “ought to” as in “You should eat your broccoli!” Rather the Greek word translated “should bow” is a subjunctive in Greek, even as it is in the English translation. Unfortunately that bit of information is useless for many English-speaking persons who NEVER use the subjunctive in English. Here is a sample of a subjuctive in English, “If you should swallow a bite of the ‘destroying angel’ mushroom, you would die.”
So the subjunctive is used in the following passage. Most of us non-subjunctive users today, would say “would bow” rather than “should bow.” Maybe if you should try doing that, you would better understand the meaning as Paul intended it.
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phillipians 2:9-11)
I have very limited Greek as well Al I am sorry, but I have heard that John 3:16 is similar if that is any help.
John 3:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Edited to add:
Those who are more expert in Greek may be able to confirm also if the “have” is also subjunctive, thus
Young’s Literal Translation
may not perish, but may have life age-during.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
will not die but will have eternal life.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life.
Good question, sir. I can add nothing to Paidion’s excellent analysis of the original NT Greek. But if I may just spin off for a moment into a sort of philosophical-cum-hermeneutical fugue, as it were , do you not detect a note of desperation in Marshall’s casual dismissal of the - in my opinion - clear Universalist reading of the verse in question?
These proof-text hermeneutical debates cannot - ultimately - arbitrate on the truth or otherwise of UR. That can only be done by viewing everything in the Bible through the illuminating lens of a wider hermeneutic - the metanarrative if you will. Which, of course, I believe is one of God’s saving love for all his children .
Blessings to you, and hope your back is improving.
Many thanks Paidion, Craig, Jason and Johnny for your helpful comments.
Yes, it would perhaps have been more accurate if I had stated in my OP that the (Philippians) passage has Isaiah 45 as its background, rather than that Isaiah 45:23 is a parallel verse.
Thanks Paidion, this explanation is helpful. I don’t however have the grammatical knowledge to understand what nuance, if any, is implied by use of the subjunctive in verse 10/11 - again perhaps you or others could advise? If Paul meant that all people ‘would’ or ‘will’ (bow … confess), as is often inferred by universalists, might he not have used a different, more definitive wording (which would translate as such into English)?
Or if it’s the case that the actual wording means something other than an unambiguous ‘would’ or ‘will’, does this undermine its value as a UR text? Perhaps that might also explain Howard Marshall’s comment - whether right or wrong - that “The statement [Philippians 2:9-11] is one of purpose, and it does not necessarily follow that the purpose will be fulfilled…” that I quoted in the OP.
Thanks Craig for pointing that out and for listing those translations. Perhaps someone will be able to say whether further parallels can be drawn between the interpretation of verse 10/11 and John 3:16.
Sorry if my OP might come across as challenging the UR interpretation of the passage in a negative way. I’m looking to believe the UR interpretation and am hoping that clarification of this point will support that, rather than meaning to put a counter-argument. And perhaps I’m making too much of a semantic point and there’s really no issue here …
Not sure about that, much as I’d like to be. (‘philosophical-cum-hermeneutical fugue’ - what a wonderful expression!)
I’m sure you’re right about that Johnny, and doubt whether this or any other individual text would by itself swing me decisively one way or the other.
Thanks, I’m on the mend, and now quite good at using a laptop lying on my back! I hope you’re enjoying your holiday in France.
Again, others please correct me if I am wrong, but in my simple understanding of it, I wonder if Howard Marshall would say that John 3:16 is a statement of purpose, and that it may not be fulfilled. Would he say that those who believe should not perish and they should have eternal life, but we can’t be sure about it?
I agree with you that if Paul had meant “every knee WILL bow” in this sentence as a definite outcome, he would have used a future tense rather than a subjunctive.
The scriptural sentence is analgous to the following: "I will turn up the thermostat so that every person in the room should be warm (Or WOULD be warm, if that sits better with you. It doesn’t necessarily follow that when I turn up the thermostat, every person in the room WILL be warm. Some people require more heat than others in order to feel warm.)
Thanks Paidion. Your “… for the following reason. God did it …” rephrasing seems to highlight the sense of purpose in the description that follows.
Paidion, I conclude from this that, in your view, Paul wasn’t inferring in Philippians 2:9-11 (considered in isolation) that every knee will bow … and every tongue will confess … (ie that all people will come to honour Jesus) as definite outcomes.
If that conclusion is correct, then I suggest the passage provides less concrete support of UR than some other UR texts, such as the passages in Romans 5 and Colossians 1, which I think can be taken more unequivocally as proclaiming that all without exception will be reconciled to God.
I also suggest that conclusion and the sense of purpose (first point above) together seem in line with at least the first sentence that I quoted from Howard Marshall in the OP (sorry Johnny ):
“The statement [Philippians 2:9-11] is one of purpose, and it does not necessarily follow that the purpose will be fulfilled. The point is simply that God intends that Christ shall have the same honour from all people as that to which he himself is entitled.”
Nevertheless, perhaps the majestic and triumphant tone of the passage suggests that most will ‘bow’/’confess’, supporting a ‘wide hope’. And perhaps the passage increases the support for UR when viewed alongside other, ‘stronger’ UR texts.
Thanks Craig for your input above. I’m afraid I’m not quite sure that I’ve understood your question, but I expect that any uncertainty expressed from an Arminian perspective (such as Marshall’s) about the fulfillment of John 3:16 would be in regard to whether an individual will come to belief, rather than in regard to whether a believer has eternal life.
Paidion, I fixed your BBCode there, closed up the quote.
Al,
While the grammar at Philippians could be read as an idealization or capability rather than a prediction, the context of the original Isaianic prophecy stressed that this was certainly going to happen: God’s evangelical word goes out successfully, God practically stakes His own ultimate deity on the outcome. Why Paul would change that to a mere ideal possibility, is something that IHMarsh, or any Arminian, would have to explain.
On the other hand, the original Isaianic prophecy could be read as only applying to all surviving humans after God’s catastrophic butt-kicking of evildoers (at the beginning of the Messianic millennium for example). The scope, in other words, could be regarded as limited. But Paul definitely states the scope as being as extreme as possible, including the dead as well as the living. So any Calvinist would have to explain why the scope is so wide as to include those under the earth, thus referring to those who have not yet been resurrected.
Putting it another way, the Isaiah verses definitely affirm Calvinistic assurance of victorious evangelical salvation in a situation that might or might not involve Arminian scope of evangelism; and the Pauline versions (in 1 Cor and Rom) definitely affirm Arminian scope of evangelical salvation in a situation that might or might not involve Calvinistic assurance of victory; and both sets of verses are explicitly talking about loyal allegiance in their original languages (so there’s no escape by positing God accepting hypocritical worship while still rebelling in their hearts, even if that was theologically possible and attested to as something God accepts elsewhere in scripture – which is exactly the reverse of the situation!)
Many thanks for those helpful additional comments, Jason, in particular your pointing out the certainty in the Isaianic prophecy. I haven’t yet quite got my head around one or two of the other, finer points!
So . . . do we take the first subjunctive thingummy as meaning that everyone who believes on Him WILL be saved, and the second one (might) as meaning that He MIGHT (but in fact will fail to) save the world? Hmm . . . it seems to me that if people want to go translating “should” as “it ought to happen, but maybe it won’t” in other places, they’ll have to apply it here too. And what’s more, the “might” really SHOULD be (but typically isn’t) received in the same spirit as the “should” in verse 16.
When I was barely able to read, my mom signed me up to receive “classics for children” . . . a book every month, and despite the fact that I needed a dictionary to read them, I felt guilty NOT reading the books my mother so kindly bought for me. I didn’t understand them and when I went back to read them with my own children, it was like reading a whole new story, but I think it did give me a feel for other ways to use language. I never read this verse as “ought to,” and I really don’t think the translators meant to confuse people with their use of “should.” It’s uncommon today, but historically, “will” and “should” are often used to mean practically the same thing. There’s a wee nuance there that tells one when she OUGHT to use WILL and when it’s preferable to use SHOULD. Thinking on it, I believe that “will/would” is to be used when the thing to happen more or less happens on its own, and “shall/should” leans toward an outside sort of nudge.
Certainly not as scholarly as Paidion or Jason, but hey . . . I’m always interested in words and their little nuances.
Thanks for those comments, Cindy. I don’t have the relevant grammatical (or Greek/linguistic) knowledge in this area, so am in the hands of others like yourself who do. In particular, I wasn’t aware of the interesting ‘wee nuance’ you described.
As for my original wording point, perhaps there’s no real issue. It had just been niggling me though (“Why didn’t Paul just say ‘will’ … ?!”), and I’m glad I raised it as I’ve found the responses helpful. They’ve also prompted me to study further the passages/themes in Isaiah, and elsewhere in the OT, that seem particularly relevant to UR.
“Phil 2:10–11, in which Paul stresses again that each and every creature will finally submit to Christ: “that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow, in heaven, on earth, and in the underworld, and every tongue may proclaim that Jesus Christ is the Lord.” In Phil 3:21 Paul hammers home again that Christ has the power to “submit all beings to himself.” Now, the verb that indicates the proclamation of the lordship of Jesus Christ on the part of all is ἐξομολογέω, which in the NT always means a voluntary and spontaneous, and not forced, confession, just like ὁμολογέω and ὁμολογία. This universal confession will be voluntary…” [p.40-41]
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:
“either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. (Phil.2:9-11)
3Therefore I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.12)
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24"They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’ Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.…(Isa.45)
11 It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God. (Rom.14:11)
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." (Rev.5:13)
P.S. I suggest this thread might be more appropriate in the section “Discussion Positive”.
“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,” it may be objected that they “should,” but they will not. But the original here means that they not only “should,” but that they also will; the same construction is in John 3:16 where the Word reads “that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,” etc. There is no doubt expressed in the word “should,” a believer will certainly not perish. Besides, the passage in Isa. 45:23 states by the divine oath that “every knee shall bow.” “In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."
“It is admitted that the scope of Phil. 2:10-11 is universal. Yet our writer states that many of those who bow and confess will finally be lost. No doubt this is partly due to his profound ignorance of the niceties of Greek grammar. It escapes, him that the word “confess” here, as usually, is in the Greek Middle Voice. This grand fact ensures that the confession is not forced or artificial, but with the emotions, from the heart, spontaneous, with the whole man behind it. It is confession indeed. That is the force of the Middle Voice in Greek. One needs only compare this verb (exomologeO), which only occurs once in the Active Voice, with the shorter verb(homologeO), which only occurs once in the Middle Voice, to observe that the former expresses the heart’s emotions and zeal, whereas the latter expresses mere matter of fact confession.”
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).
"The OP makes the point that God wants to save everyone and then asks why conservatives believe God’s will can be thwarted and why it cannot be fulfilled in the next life.
Let’s summarize the points before which Jeff and company continually freeze like Bambi in the headlights.
(1) The Philippain hymn pictures everyone in the universe, righteous and unrighteous, bowing before Christ and making the saving confession. Paul teaches that no one can sincerely confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).
(2) The universal confession envisaged must be a saving confession because (a) the hymn in based on the divine invitation to universal salvation in Isaiah 45:22-23 and (b) the alternative explanation is the absurd assumption that the unrighteous dead are portrayed as making this saving confession before a lever is pulled and they are then sucked down to Hell.
(3) The hymn in Revelation 5:13 similarly envisages all humanity, living and dead, worshiping Jesus and God. But how did the evil dead get to Heaven to sing this hymn? John tells us that the gates of the New Jerusalem are permanently open (21:25), so that those outside, the evil dead (22:15) can enter and be saved (22:15).
“God our Savior…desires everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (2 Timothy 2:4).”
Indeed, various NT texts imply the possibility of postmortem repentance and salvation (e. g. 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Corinthians 15:38-29), texts to be discussed later. But is God the Savior only of the righteous or of both the righteous and the unrighteous? Paul gives this thrilling inclusive response:
“The living God…is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (2 Timothy 4:10).” Here "especially means “more immediately” and leaves the door open for postmortem repentance.
as famed evangelical apologist C. S. Lewis eloquently puts it: “The gates of Hell are locked from the inside.”
Philippians 2:10-11J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
That is why God has now lifted him so high, and has given him the name beyond all names, so that at the name of Jesus “every knee shall bow”, whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth. And that is why, in the end, “every tongue shall confess” that Jesus Christ” is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:10-11The Message (MSG)
9-11 Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth—even those long ago dead and buried—will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honor of God the Father.
Philippians 2:10-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:10-11New English Translation (NET Bible)
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow
—in heaven and on earth and under the earth—
11 and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord
to the glory of God the Father.
Kehillah in Philippi 2:10-11Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
10 That at haShem of Yehoshua, KOL BERECH (every knee YESHAYAH 45:23) will bow, of beings b’Shomayim and ba’Aretz and mitachat laAretz (in the world below), 11 And KOL LASHON (every tongue YESHAYAH 45:23) shall make hoda’ah (confession) with an Ani Ma’amin that is an open and public admission that Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach Yehoshua (Yeshua) is Adoneinu, to the kavod of Elohim Avinu.
Philippians 2:10-11New Century Version (NCV)
10 so that every knee will bow to the name of Jesus—
everyone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.
11 And everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord
and bring glory to God the Father.
Philippians 2:10-11Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
of those who are in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,[a]
to the glory of God the Father.
):