The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Philippians 2:9-11 – ‘should’ vs ‘will’

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#60

If it means that then wouldn’t it have been God’s “purpose” to still be saving Judas, Pharaoh & anyone who had already died in their sins when Paul wrote Phil.2:9-11, since that passage refers to “every” one? In which case the author would have to agree to the possibility of postmortem repentance.

BTW the same book says:

“Gregory of Nyssa is particularly keen to ground his belief in universal salvation in Scripture: besides 1 Corinthians 15:28, he uses Phillipians 2:10…8…He even tentatively suggests that the words ‘under the earth’ refers to demons who will also be saved.9” (p.193)

  1. Gregory of Nyssa (1988), p.461; see also Ludlow (2000), pp.77-82.
  2. Gregory of Nyssa (1988), p.444.
#61

“Gregory has Phil 2.10 in mind. The Pauline affirmation that even under the earth every knee will bend leads Gregory to the conviction that none will remain definitively excluded from union with God.”

“Origen had already reached the same conclusion, interpreting that this bending of the knee must be understood as an authentic adoration and voluntary homage…” (p.279)

The Brill Dictionary of Gregory of Nyssa
edited by Lucas Francisco Mateo Seco, Giulio Maspero

https://books.google.ca/books?id=lD3zg6t4y7MC&pg=PA279&lpg=PA279&dq=Gregory+Nyssa+every+knee+should+bend&source=bl&ots=jtvMydJWMT&sig=Rl-7vsr6254wcsNGA-b1kUyiu-c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOluK-oeLcAhVAIjQIHXylCsEQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Gregory%20Nyssa%20every%20knee%20should%20bend&f=false

Likewise also states p.51 of:

“All Shall Be Well”: Explorations in Universal Salvation and Christian …
edited by Gregory MacDonald, Robin A. Parry

https://books.google.ca/books?id=8yNMAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=Gregory+Nyssa+every+knee+should+bend&source=bl&ots=LWl_xKGHB-&sig=Li_v_eHQnT2_x64-Dpb6Z6sLL3s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjF0bSWqOLcAhVRJ30KHcpDDKYQ6AEwAnoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=Gregory%20Nyssa%20every%20knee%20should%20bend&f=false

http://www.tentmaker.org/biographies/nyssaquotes.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2915.htm

#62

The way we have been raised leads to our thinking that “should” means “ought to.” And it does!
But it does NOT mean “ought to” when used as a subjunctive as In Philippians 2:9-11.

Here is a website that illustrates the use of “should” as a subjunctive in English:

#63

Please note my rebuttal in the pro-universalism section. Here I would only add:
(1) tthere is no scholarly consensus that the NT always used the Septuagint for OT quotations and (2) that there is a scholarly consensus that Phil 2:6-11 is a pre-Pauline hymn (not a Pauline hymn) inspired by (but not a quotation of ) Isaiah 45:22-23.

#64

What exactly were you rebutting?

Paul wrote in Romans 14:

…for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

Doubtless Paul was quoting from Isaiah 45. the verb for “shall bow” is a simple future in the Greek.

In Philippians 2:9-11 Paul says it in a somewhat different way:

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Here Paul is saying that God had highly exalted Jesus with a purpose in mind. That purpose was that every knee should bow (read “would bow” if you don’t use or understand English subjunctives) and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

#65

Don’t confuse the English subjunctive with the Greek subjunctive and its introduction of a result clause. Scholars debate whether 2;9-11 is merely Christological or soteriological. Even if it were merely Christological, it seems absurd to assume that the confession (which in Hebrew implies gratitude) is coerced before a lever is lifted and these poor souls fall, screaming back to Hell. The invitation to universal salvation in the underlying Isaiah text and it proclamation of the confession that will (not should) happen is decisive, together with the fact that the confession “Jesus is Lord” is redemptive and implies the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (so 1 Cor 12:3).

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#66

The Greek subjunctive is broader in use than the English subjunctive, but it may be used to indicate purpose as in the English subjunctive.

This was understood by translators most of whom translated the subjunctive in Philippians 2:9-11 with the English subjunctive word “should.” That is done in the following versions:
ASV, AV, Darby, Diaglot, ESV, HCSB, JB2013, LEB, NHEB, NIV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, Webster, Wey, and Williams.

Were the translators of all these versions wrong?

#67

“In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10).”

“κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14…is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).

#68

When the subjunctive occurs with the particle hina, as in Rom.11:32 & Gal.2:16, for examples, it does not indicate “possibility & potentiality” but rather “purpose or result”. “When hina is used with the subjunctive, the mood changes from one of possibility or probability, to one of purpose or result.” http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/

“nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.” (Gal.2:16, NASB)

“Again, “may” here is an idiomatic way of translating purpose in English. The purpose of belief is justification. Indeed, one can also see here the hina clause being used to indicate result. Paul, by using the subjunctive, is not intending to communicate any kind of uncertainty with regard to justification. Rather, by using the subjunctive in a hina clause, he is proclaiming that our faith in Christ has its purpose in our justification, and also has its end result in our justification.” http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/

#69

Yes, ἱνα (hina) means “in order that” or “so that” expressions which indicate purpose.

#71

You might want to see Paidon’s comment on Phil.2:9-11 here & the whole thread:

#72

This quote comes from the following topic:

"CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150-220 A.D.) likewise has sounded these words: “The Lord, [says John in his First Epistle,] is a propitiation, ‘not for our sins only,’ that is, of the faithful, ‘but also for the whole world.’ Therefore He indeed saves all universally; but some as converted by punishments, others by voluntary submission, thus obtaining the honour and dignity, that ‘to Him every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,’ that is [to say,] angels, and men, and souls who departed this life before His coming into the world.”The Fate of the Lost — A Fourth View?

#73

In fact, I DO affirm that this text teaches the reconciliation of ALL people to God. What I wrote in no way denied that. All I was trying to do was explain that there is no problem with the fact that Paul uses the subjunctive to teach that God exalted Christ IN ORDER THAT (or for the purpose that) every knee would bow, and thus it is unnecessary for translators to change the subjunctive “should” to the simple future “will” in order to bring this truth out.

Thank you, Origen, for explaining my position to qaz.

#75

Are you confusing Clement of Alexandria with another ancient Clement?

#77

Can you post the context?

#79

What does this purported fragment of Clement have to do with the “context” of his remark i posted? You claimed the quote i “gave from him is taken out of context”. Where is your evidence in support of that claim?

As to your quote above, koine_lingua says “it seems that perhaps there’s been some early mix-up, as this is actually related to pseudo-Clement (of Rome!), Homily 11.11”:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/342ux2/part_8_αἰώνιος_aiōnios_in_jewish_and_christian/

BTW, Scripture never uses language such as that. If it did this site wouldn’t exist.

#81

People change their views over time. If someone quoted my forum posts about God over my 30 year span, no doubt I could be for anything. Unless you get an official statement at the end of their life, you will no doubt find contradictory statements.

Uhg. Android auto correct is abysmal.

#82

Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:
The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.
(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13).

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#83

That would depend on things such as when this “Pseudo-Clementine” quote was written, who was the actual author, where he lived, etc.

“Pseudo-Clementine Homilies…Estimated Range of Dating: 300-320 A.D.”

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/clementinehomilies.html

#84

I have found the quote in Volume 2 of the Ante-Nicene Fathers.
It’s in the section containing Clement of Alexandria’s writings, but it is not clear to me that Clement actually wrote the words. It appears immediately below the title “The Barocc ms 3803.”