The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Piper's view on Rom 11:36b "To him are all things."

Evangelical Universalism
#1

, Piper"]5. To God Be the Glory Forever

Which leads us finally (fifth) to the conclusion of the whole matter—the paragraph and the 11 chapters. Not only are all things from God and through God, but, as verse 36b says, “To him are all things. To him be glory forever.”I think it’s actually odd that he splits the verse this way. I think the clearer, stronger point is the parallel of “For from him and through him and to him are all things”. The "To Him"s can be linked as well, but I don’t think they should be to the exclusion of the former parallel.

I try to.

Yes.

Yes, but I think Eternal Conscious Torment/Punishment isn’t “the best possible way”, as it contains NO beauty…

If sin damages God reputation, then the ongoing sin in Eternal Conscious Torment/Punishment is a major problem. I also think because God is also other focused.

Yes, although I also think God made us exist out of love for us, which isn’t mutually exclusive. i.e. seeing Him as truly glorious is actually a blessing to us too.

Yes, I actually think saving sinners is much more glorious than destroying them or locking them up (see 2Cor 3).

Yes.

I embrace it but find it hard to see how the Reprobate’s everlasting conscious torment/punishment glorifies God at all, let alone as much as saving them would? :confused:

#2

I agree.
I also think Piper’s point here belies the problem you’ve hinted at with the line of thinking behind his statement; that God’s primary concern with sin is that it damages the reputation of His glory. It seems clear to me in the way Christ came into the world to vindicate the righteousness of God, that his primary concern with sin is that it damages ***us ***. It is in this way that it secondarily damages the reputation of His glory, in that we were made to enjoy being an accurate reflection of Him.
I find this overemphasis on God’s Glory and Holiness being of utmost importance very common in reformed thinking. While well-intentioned, it ends up making God look as selfish as we are, and that is clearly not the case.

#3

I had a real problem with God seeming to be such a “glory hog,” and so I did a study on it here: wp.me/p1bhiA-ve on my blog.

Honestly, reading Piper’s sermon (or the bits you’ve posted) about God having done everything for His GLORY makes me angry – at Piper for defaming my Father this way – as though all Abba cares about is showing off, showing how wonderful HE is. Nothing else matters but glory, glory, glory – especially knowing how Piper likely defines glory. It makes God look like a schmuck. It may go over in Piper’s church, but the world are shaking their heads and vowing to have nothing to do with such a God. And honestly, I can’t say I blame them. :frowning:

God’s glory is in revealing Himself as He is to all of us. That’s what glory means. He wants to be known. Don’t we all? He wants to love and be loved, to have kids (a house – legacy – family) who know and love and imitate Him, with whom He can have an open and intimate relationship. Jesus wants a bride – a beloved to be one with Him, one into whom He can pour all His love and receive that love returned. The Holy Spirit wants a sanctuary of living stones to unite together in ultimate and never-ending love and beauty. THAT is glory.

So yeah . . . I’ll take a breath now. :laughing: Piper’s pushin’ my buttons.

#4

@ Cindy: I tend to agree with you. Everything God does is only to glorify Himself? Wow. Does Piper’s God have angels that carry mirrors for Him everywhere he goes? :laughing: No, I don’t think so. Jesus (the express image of His Person) certainly wasn’t “That Guy” either.

#5

Easy to see how that could happen…

#6

“The kings of the earth lord it over others and call themselves benefactors. You are not to be like that.” Why not? Because God is not like that. What is God like? Well, he’s the sort of person who will get on his knees and wash our feet. To me, that is stunningly glorious. It leaves me speechless with wonder. Where is the glory in a very big God bashing a very small person for insulting him? That’s not glorious, but pathetic.

#7

I agree overemphasising a particular type of glory can make God look selfish. I find this encouraging as it ties them together:

"]Man’s chief end is to glorify God, (a) and to enjoy him for ever. (b)

(a). Ps. 86:9; Isa. 60:21; Rom. 11:36; I Cor. 6:20; 10:31; Rev. 4:11
(b). Ps. 16:5-11; 144:15; Isa. 12:2; Luke 2:10; Phil. 4:4; Rev. 21:3-4

Yes, I read that awhile back & found it helpful.

Yes, certainly when it’s a portrayed God’s only interest.

Very well put!

I agree.

Yes, I think Jesus’ incredible humility gives us a profound insight into the character of the Father & the type of glory He desires & why He desires it. I guess a shadow of that is my desire for my children to know me, primarily that should be for their own good not mine.

#8

What Piper teaches is that God glorifies Himself for the joy of His people. Pride is thinking of yourself more highly than you ought to. God doesn’t do this. His loving and thinking of Himself is in direct proportion to who He is - the most glorious of all Beings. He’s not egotistical. He loves His own image more than anything which is first and foremost, His humility.

#9

Also, God doesn’t take delight in the suffering and death of the wicked in and of itself. What He delights in is the glories of His justice. He’s not sadistic. Piper has pointed this out repeatedly in his writings.

#10

Piper really is fond of spouting rubbish.
it’s totally pointless him even preaching, since he believes in reprobation and election, two states he cannot affect regardless of what he says or does, in his own view.

the only thing i’ve heard him say that had any sense was against prosperity gospel.

Cindy, your blog post was brilliant. it’s helped me understand the nature of glory a bit more.

#11

:blush: Thanks, CL. :wink: