Poll: Are you a Trinitarian?


Yes, Definitely

I’ve tried not being dogmatic about Trinitarianism but I was unable because a denial of the doctrine of the trinity usually leads to a denial of a vital aspect of Christianity - The Lord Jesus Christ being God.

One of the things that have hindered to me accepting unilateralism (I’m hoping this board can change that) is the fact that many, MANY, universalists Christians deny two very vital Christian doctrines:

-The Trinity - as mentioned, denial of this usually leads to the denial of Jesus being God.
-Free Will - denial of this calls into question the very character of God, even if God saves everyone, God controlling everyone is still a very sickening teaching.

God Bless
Christ Be With You All



There were a whole host of things Christ was doing at the cross. Not just forging our sins. Yes Jesus forgave our sins at the cross but this wasn’t the only thing He was doing. He was also cleansing our sins. In the Bible blood symbolizes life. Sin brings spiritual death and separation from God. In faith union with Christ our sins become His. For we are in Him and He is in us. In mystical union we are one with Christ. When the cup of God’s wrath was poured out His blood cleanses our sins. When our sins are cleansed it brings a smile to His face. He is pleased with us. When God smiles His glory shines. This is the glory of the happy God of the Gospel. Because He is love He hates sin. But with His hatred now removed He is our loving Father. We are crucified with Him buried and resurrected to new life. We become crucified followers of Christ. Here’s what the Bible teaches Christ was doing in the Atonement. Remember He voluntarily and willingly took on the sins of His people… That’s a lot of sin. So, we should expect the suffering to be so severe. Especially since it lasted for only a few hours. While Satan and man’s intentions were evil in the suffering and death of Christ, God’s intentions in allowing it were good. He had justifiable reasons for permitting the suffering and death of Christ. Here’s a few things the Bible says Christ was doing in the Atonement.

Showing that the worst evil in human history was meant by God for good

Providing the basis for our justification

Completing the obedience that becomes our righteousness

Taking away condemnation

Removing God’s wrath

Pleasing the Father in His obedience and love

Showing love and grace to sinners

Cancelling the legal demands of the law

Purifying His bride

Bringing the elect to faith

Giving eternal life to all who trust in Him

Making us holy

Giving us a clear conscious

Delivering us from the present evil age

Healing us from moral sickness

Bringing us to God

Freeing us from the slavery of sin that we might die to sin and live for righteousness

Enabling us to live for Himself

Creating a people passionate for good works

Calling us to follow His example of holy love

Creating a band of crucified followers

Freeing us from the fear of death

Gathering His sheep from around the world

Forgiving our sins

Of course we can’t know all of the infinite reasons of God’s infinite mind. But since God had justifiable reasons in permitting the murder of Christ then He does nothing wrong in doing so.



In union with you upon the cross
As love’s arrow pierces my heart
I die to myself and suffer loss
Then given a new life and start

Buried to my old self I then rise
Vision is now clear as I can see
New self reflects in Your eyes
The person I am and want to be

Looking deeper into Your face
Beauty becomes brighter inside
With no more wrath only grace
In union with You I now confide


Do you have anything to offer the world, that’s more substantial then Ross Perot or Donald Trump - one liners :question: :laughing:



You argued "If one piece of a puzzle is formed a certain way, then all other pieces near it must also be formed to comply to the first.

See it."

I’m unfamiliar with this interpretation, or that life is this kind of puzzle. What convinces you that our existence is this kind of puzzle, or that God’s affirming choice of Jesus requires that God chose people to kill Jesus?


Your God is not that big of a prick is he?

You are looking at the prize while ignoring that only a satanic mind would promote human sacrifice.

Look at this from a moral and legal point of view.

Human sacrifice is evil and God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

Those trying to profit from that evil are evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus – his good child – for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won’t themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that’s not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it’s not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, — so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, — is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.



Logic and reason states that if God pre-ordained a death, he would have to insure there was someone there to do the killing.

If you tell your child to drive to the store, you have to insure that he has a car.



So, DL. Forget about Christianity for the moment. Forget about religion for the moment. What is your philosophy of life? I feel and think it’s fair, to ask critics to give their own position here - whether theistic or non-theistic. If Ayn Rand and Friedrich Nietzsche (my 2 favorite atheistic philosophers) were alive and on this forum, they would be happy - to answer this question.

You also said:

So, does that mean you believe in a mixture of free will and determinism and embrace Compatibilism?

And what exactly does the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome, have to do with it? It’s not a philosophical movement or position. According to Wiki:

I believe it expresses a scientific discovery, in the field of psychology. And it has a limited range of applicability



You nicely stated, “Logic and reason states that if God pre-ordained a death, he would have to insure there was someone there to do the killing.”

Which of Peter’s words in this text are you equating to “preordained” Jesus’ death?


D.L. Your thoughts about God’s sense of justice being satisfied by punishing His Son instead of punishing wrongdoers, expresses a view known as “penal substitution.” That is only one view of the benefit of Christ’s death; there are several others.

Here is the purpose of Christ’s death according to Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews. Notice that NONE of them give the penal-substitution view:

You may well ask about the logistics of these benefits of Christ’s death. I do not know. But the point is, that penal substitution is not suggested in any of these statements.


1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

If God chose a victim then he also had to insure a murderer was their to do the deed that he pre-ordained.



range of applicability

Not to the religious mind.

Have you never wondered why Christians adore a genocidal son murdering God?

If not a variant of Stockholm Syndrome then that love of a vile and immoral God cannot be explained, unless you have some way of explaining it.



Look again for the first time.

He himself endured our sins. ------ our sins.

And he died for all ------- a substitute for all.

He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, -------- our sins.

For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord --------- rather self-serving that. No?

who gave himself for us --------- substitution. Right?

I cannot believe that you are so unintelligent that you put what you did.




So, what is your background DL? You still sound to me, like you are just zinging Ross Perot and Donald Trump one liners. :laughing:

Have you studied philosophy? If so, what?
Have you studied science? If so, what?

How do you know I’m not** really **profiling you, to determine what makes you really tick? Thank about it :exclamation: :laughing:


If you wish to believe that Jesus’ murder had no salvific connection, well and good.

Most Christians will not agree with you.

As to the right to rule, the right of Kings, I guess that Yahweh was teaching Jesus what to do when he coveted another man’s woman, cuckolded Joseph and then do as all deadbeat dads do. Left his responsibility and ran away from them.



Yes, I am unashamedly Trinitarian.


Are all three parts of the Godhead equal?

If not then which head takes precedence?



And who did you vote for :question: Hillary or Donald :question: And why :question: :laughing:

Just remember, fellow Christians :exclamation: No matter how bad things seem :exclamation: Never give up that ship :exclamation: :laughing:




If you are just to show people what a swollen headed fool you are, please do not quote what I asked a more intelligent and mannered poster.