I can only conclude that God has hidden the simple truth of His absolute sovereignty from them.
A King can be sovereign without meticulously controlling every choice man makes. He can but he need not so i think man has limited free will subject to God’s Will.
There is no flatout statement supporting free will in scripture but there are many instances where man is encouraged to make the right choice. That’s what people mean by free will, the ability to choose.
The option to obey or not is indicative of choice i.e., a free will to decide either way. To say Scripture doesn’t support this is laughable… 
Davo - You nailed it!! 
The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke.
I’m not quite sure what this means particularly the word “purge” and “stroke” but could it be referencing the resurrection?
Duh
I understand it to directly mean that the Lord would deliver him from the results of the stroke of death. And yes, raising His Son from death may well have been His means for doing that.
He prayed “with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him OUT OF death.” AND HE WAS HEARD! Does that not tell us that God DID save Him from death? HOW did God do that? By raising Him OUT OF death (εκ “out of” not “from”).
So God raising His Son out of death may have been the way that God “purged Him from His stroke.”
Being in disobedience & an enemy of God is not what He considers “behaving properly”, but merely a necessary momentary means to a completely undeserved & glorious goal so amazing that it is beyond what we have ever thought or imagined. Without these experiences we would never even know what “behaving properly” means. We’d be like Adam & Eve before the fall, like totally clueless zombies. That’s one “Calvinistic” URist Determinist take on the topic, anyway.
9:14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all. (Rom.11:32)
7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
Well, the world didn’t end today - at least, so far. 
I still say that “hard core, theological determinism” - is a hard scenario to sell. You could sell hard determinism, to an atheistic professional philosopher. Like brain chemical interactions, etc. Or you could sell compatibilism (a combination of free will and determinism). And most Calvinists would buy it. But hard-core theological determinism, is a hard scenario to sell. I really don’t think even Islam would buy it - and they are pretty fatalistic theologically. Just my observation.
In fact, I just came across an interesting Islamic essay:
The Problem of Pre-Determinism and Its Impact on Muslim Thought
Let me quote a few segments - from the article. That might be relevant, to Christian theology and western philosophy.
We can see that Islamic theologians, philosophers, and scholars…wrestle with the same issues, as Christian theologians, philosophers, and scholars.
This essay - although Islamic in nature - has much relevance, to our Christian theology and western philosophy. It is well worth reading and gets 2 thumbs up from me.
Now let’s move on to Pulp Fiction at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_Fiction. I’ll just focus on plot elements, of the black and white crime enforcers or killers:
Suppose this were real. Jules saw the not getting shot, as a sign from God. Vincent say it as just luck and the guy - being a bad shot. How would we interpret this, in light of our discussion - if this all were real?
Now let me ponder that deep theological and philosophical puzzle. If hard core, theological determinism is true. Then why do I prefer Chinese restaurant tea (a hybrid of Oolong, Jasmine and Green) and Indian Chai tea (black tea with Indian spices), while most Americans prefer coffee 
Steve 7150 wrote:
The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke.
I’m not quite sure what this means particularly the word “purge” and “stroke” but could it be referencing the resurrection?
I understand it to directly mean that the Lord would deliver him from the results of the stroke of death. And yes, raising His Son from death may well have been His means for doing that.
OK good info, but the verse says “his stroke” which sounds like God determined Jesus to die?
Being in disobedience & an enemy of God is not what He considers “behaving properly”, but merely a necessary momentary means to a completely undeserved & glorious goal so amazing that it is beyond what we have ever thought or imagined. Without these experiences we would never even know what “behaving properly” means. We’d be like Adam & Eve before the fall, like totally clueless zombies. That’s one “Calvinistic” URist Determinist take on the topic, anyway.
Yes because we learn by contrast, but God need not meticulously control everything for this production to play out to it’s logical conclusion.
Amen +1
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him out of death, and was heard because of His godly fear… Hebrews 5:7
He prayed “with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him OUT OF death.” AND HE WAS HEARD! Does that not tell us that God DID save Him from death? HOW did God do that? By raising Him OUT OF death (εκ “out of” not “from”).
So God raising His Son out of death may have been the way that God “purged Him from His stroke.”
Paidion
Good post but again was it not “his stroke” meaning God caused his death?
Firstly, it can be called your disobedience because it’s happening in you, not in someone else who is acting obediently. When your body steals a cookie, it is not another body across the street praying that is stealing the cookie. Calling it your disobedience merely distinguishes it from the disobedience of another human vessel, and implies nothing about who is responsibile for or the source(s) of causation of said disobedience.
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Rom.11:32)
Secondly, arguably, it’s the fallen man that is making the disobedient decisions as he is forced to by his sinful inclinations or sinful flesh or sinful nature or sinful constitution, not by God or a make-belief Arminian type of “free will” (AFW). AFAIK this is what 80 million Calvinists believe.
When a trained dog is told to sit & stay, but he disobeys & chases after the cat, is he exercising AFW? No, he doesn’t have AFW, but is acting according to his dog nature & disposition of the moment. God doesn’t make him chase the cat. The dog makes that choice.
Another trained dog in the same situation will be obedient and not chase the cat. Does the fact that some dogs obey & some disobey in this situation mean dogs can make their own AFW choices? No, they don’t possess AFW. And, just like dogs, it is claimed that neither do humans possess AFW or make AFW choices in situations where different choices are conceivably possible.
“Defense of Total Depravity and its effects on the human will”:
I believe that man’s nature is a good thing that has been spoiled; not that man’s nature is a totally bad thing.
There is a difference between those concepts.
Karl Barth interpreted Paul as saying that man’s nature now carries no trace of God’s image, and that the ‘new creature’ is an actual and literal act of power, or creation, on God’s part. He went so far as to say that the ‘natural’ man has NO true idea, none at all, of who God is. So it takes a miracle of creation to bring some new being into being.
Emil Brunner considered God’s work in us to be a matter of sheer Grace, not of power. We are the recipients of the gracious activity of God.
Luther and Erasmus had their own set of conceptions on the matter of depravity, focusing mainly on whether the will is in bondage (Luther) or not.
I have found that noone ever changes their mind on this issue. I don’t think it is even a matter of parsing Scripture, because we ALL feel that we are ‘doing it right.’ It is an interesting phenomenon to observe the differences over this issue.
Let me add to it, the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Calvinism at
Orthodoxy’s “ancestral sin” versus Calvinism’s “total depravity”
Let me share, one of the answers’
You could say the giving of the law was one of those “instances where man is encouraged to make the right choice”, as well as telling man what is right and what is wrong. Was the idea that man could by his imagined free will keep the law & save himself, if he so chose? No, the law was a ministration of death, of the letter that kills (2 Cor.3:6-7).
The purpose of the law, according to the following opinion:
"Question: “What is the purpose of the Mosaic Law?”
Answer: The Mosaic Law was given specifically to the nation of Israel (Exodus 19; Leviticus 26:46; Romans 9:4). It was made up of three parts: the Ten Commandments, the ordinances, and the worship system, which included the priesthood, the tabernacle, the offerings, and the festivals (Exodus 20—40; Leviticus 1—7; 23). The purpose of the Mosaic Law was to accomplish the following:
(1) Reveal the holy character of the eternal God to the nation of Israel (Leviticus 19:2; 20:7–8).
(2) Set apart the nation of Israel as distinct from all the other nations (Exodus 19:5).
(3) Reveal the sinfulness of man (cf. Galatians 3:19). Although the Law was good and holy (Romans 7:12), it did not provide salvation for the nation of Israel. “No one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin” (Romans 3:20; cf. Acts 13:38–39).
(4) Provide forgiveness through the sacrifice/offerings (Leviticus 1—7) for the people who had faith in the Lord in the nation of Israel.
(5) Provide a way of worship for the community of faith through the yearly feasts (Leviticus 23).
(6) Provide God’s direction for the physical and spiritual health of the nation (Exodus 21—23; Deuteronomy 6:4–19; Psalm 119:97–104).
(7) Cause people, after Christ came, to see that they couldn’t keep the Law but needed to accept Christ as personal Savior, for He had fulfilled the Law in His life and paid the penalty for our breaking it in His death, burial, and bodily resurrection (Galatians 3:24; Romans 10:4). The believer in Christ has the very righteousness of the Law fulfilled in him as he obeys the Holy Spirit who lives within him (Romans 8:4)."
You can tell a person to “choose Christ” 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, but until God draws them by His grace they will be completely helpless and unable to do so:
"“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.” (Jn.6:44)
Until that happens they simply don’t have the freedom to “decide either way”, even when presented with the choice. They only have the freedom to reject Him.
Likewise you can share the gospel and tell them to choose to believe, but until God imparts to them faith, they will be as helpless to believe as the dead & rotting corpses in graveyards:
“For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,” (Phil.1:29)
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (Jn.6:29)
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; (Heb.12:2a)
as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. (Rom.12:3b)
Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak (2 Cor.4:13b)
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (Eph.2)
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Eph.2:1)
The apostle Paul believed that he had the ability to choose either death or life:
Joshua also believed that the Israelites had the ability to choose—either Yahweh (the LORD) or the gods their fathers served, or the gods of the Amorites.Joshua said:
Today, I was taking a walk in the park. And a teenager on a bike, asked me - if he could ask me a question. His question was:
At first, I was going to get into a talk - about different positions - on being born again. But then I thought - what is the point?
So I ask him instead,
He had no clue, what that meant. So I said
And he was happy with that response. He attends a non-denomination church and I attend an Anglican church. That believes in the real presence in communion and the Charismatic gifts, of the Holy Spirit.
So I told him to find some “lost souls” and preach the gospel to them. Actually, we could be in accord - if:
Someone follows Christianity and Christ, as found in the Nicene creed.
Or follows God, akin the to Native Americans, Sikhism or Bahaism
Or follows a system of ethics, similar to the Buddhists.
Otherwise, someone is trying to “sell me something”. An I don’t have time, to hear a sales pitch.
