The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Poll: What's Your Theory of Atonement?

Theology Biblical Theology
#58

I voted “Kaleidoscope” because I believe that the Atonement is multifaceted, no one perspective can contain all that happened in the sacrifice of Christ.

Through it Christ triumphed over all - evil, death, and the grave, breaking all powers of darkness, triumphing over them. Through the Atonement He revealed how to truly live in love, moral influence. He was our Scapegoat. And by His stripes we are healed. And He died for our sins. He accomplished any and all payment of sins that we and/or God perceives to be necessary.

I think many of these perspectives though are not meant to effect any changes in God, but to effect changes in us. God forgives because God loves us, and love keeps no record of wrongs. The sacrifice of Christ doesn’t enable God to be forgiving, but is an expression of His forgiveness and helps enable us to understand and receive His forgiveness. The sacrifice of Christ doesn’t somehow move God to heal for God IS Life itself; rather, the sacrifice of Christ reveals to us how much God loves us so that we might embrace Life and be healed (spirit, soul, and body). The sacrifice of Christ does not “effect” Him triumphing over evil, death, and the grave because He is God and in control of all and never was out of control; rather, it reveals to us that He overcomes evil, death, and the grave for us because He loves us.

It’s similar to baptism, prayer, or any other means of forgiveness and grace. Baptism doesn’t move God to forgive us; rather, it helps us receive, embrace, appropriate God’s forgiveness. I’ve come to see salvation to be not about us someday getting into heaven, but about getting heaven into us today!

#59

Very good Sherman. I was going to say the whole thing is God’s story to us, its all for our learning. The creation, fall, redemption are all one story, the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. The reason Jesus died was because its the central point of the story, its the beginning and end, alpha-omega.

#60

Here’s a nice description of Christos Victor that works well with Moral Influence and what I believe in general: experimentaltheology.blogspot.co … s-not.html

#61

Beautiful, Sherman

And as I’m looking into this, I think I will agree with you. I’m finding things in many of these outlooks that I think agree with scripture and with what we know of God’s character. Thanks for an inspiring post.

And RHM,

I love the idea of the story. We hear it everywhere, even from people who haven’t learned it. The Story seems to be written on every heart.

Paidion,

Great essay! I really found it inspiring, especially the part about how we need to press in (by His power) to that high calling. I always felt this was kind of out of sync with the gospel I had heard, and it fits much better this way.

I would comment that even in that part of the church that teaches penal substitution, I at least, have never heard the idea that it doesn’t much matter how you live. They always also taught a high moral standard where I was, in addition to the penal substitutionary atonement idea (however paradoxical that may be). Just to be fair, you know.

The section on aphesis is very enlightening. What a difference a translation makes! Thanks for bringing this to my attention – it explains a lot.

In recent years, I too have discarded the idea that “all you have to do is believe and say a little prayer.” Not because I did any in depth exegesis, because I knew the scriptures well enough to know the “little prayer” wasn’t in there, but really, just because it didn’t make sense. What if you believed the wrong version of the gospel? What if you didn’t believe thoroughly enough? How wrong did the thing have to believe before God would disqualify you. No . . . too complicated. No one would make it that way, or if anyone did, it would only be by mistake.

I’ve always been a little bewildered about the baptism thing, though. Scripture is very clear that we’re to be baptized, but would God disqualify someone just because they didn’t understand about the importance of baptism? Lots of people sincerely don’t believe it’s necessary. Of course, the knowledge that we will ALL make it, along which ever path we end up traveling to Jesus, is a great comfort regarding anyone (ourselves included) who might have messed up somewhere.

The last bit about the body and the Head and all of us being one in Christ and with Him and He with us is my favorite part. It is in Him that we traveled through the dark lands, safe in the mercy seat of the Arc of the Covenant, our Lord, and out again into His marvelous light. He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

#62

I really appreciate this statement Sherman. Of the few truths I have discovered in my new Christian life, this is definitely one of the more important ones.

#63

Hi Cindy:

Great topic! And one which has been discussed here many times. Before UR came into my consciousness, the Atonement was my favorite topic for contemplation. I hope you’ve had a chance to read

A Critique of Penal Substitution – by our own Bob Wilson over here…
[A Critique of Penal Substitution)

Of course saying what Atonement isn’t is not exactly what your question asks! But Penal Substitution explanations are so entrenched in Christianity that it’s unavoidable it seems and one must deal with it. That thread is kinda long – but well worth it I think.

By far the best 4 books I’ve ever read on the Atonement are these:

***Proverbs of Ashes : Violence, Redemptive Suffering, and the Search for What Saves Us ***
by Rita Nakashima Brock and Rebecca Ann Parker (Nov 18, 2002)

The Nonviolent Atonement,
by J. Denny Weaver

***Stricken by God?: Nonviolent Identification and the Victory of Christ ***
by Brad Jersak (Editor), Michael Hardin (Editor)

***Recovering the Scandal of the Cross: Atonement in New Testament & Contemporary Contexts ***
by Joel B. Green and Mark D. Baker (Aug 24, 2000)

As for the poll, it simply must be the “Kaleidoscope” choice as the bible employs such a variety of images and analogies and metaphors in it’s attempt to relay to us the rich depth of meaning contained in the Atonement. For me, the penal Substitution model fails badly to capture this depth in addition to leading to some very inappropriate ideas about God and the nature of our dilemma. For me, Christus Victor, Moral Influence, and Healing stand the tallest.

Detest the penal substitution explanation as I do, I simply cannot discard it entirely however because it is there, it does have some explanatory power (though not nearly as much as it’s adherents believe) and the fact is that many find great comfort and blessing in it. But my experience is that the PS model is like the obnoxious drunk who ruins your party because he simply takes over and drowns out all other voices.

Enjoy your reading Cindy!!

Bobx3

#64

:laughing:

#65

Thanks, Bob(x3). I did do a search, but I didn’t find this thread that you linked. So I’ve got Bob W’s essay up in Word right now and have ordered a couple of the books you suggest. I really appreciate your help! :slight_smile:

And yes, what with what I’ve read thus far, I’m thinking probably Kaleidoscope, too. The book I’m reading right now, “The Nature of the Atonement,” the guy who does the article on Christus Victor talks a little about PS, how it could be seen in a way that doesn’t dishonor Father; that Adam’s race made the mess and Jesus took the heat. He took the bullet for us, and in that sense He substituted Himself between us and our adversary (Satan, not God), or between us and the natural consequences of our own actions, which would have finally destroyed us, but which He, as our Champion, was able to defeat by His very willingness to suffer them though, as a perfect human being, He would otherwise have been immune to their effects. That made a lot more sense to me than the traditional rendering (which makes a horrifying picture of darkness and very little light).

#66

Well, once it gets there, I don’t think it’s Subst Aton anymore, tbh. Subst Aton, as I know it, is defense from God’s wrath. Defense from Satan makes it ransom theory iirc.

#67

Christus Victor is certainly a substitutionary atonement, and I guess you could even say it’s a penal substitution. But it’s not penal subsititution in the sense that on our behalf, Yeshua bore the payment demanded by the Most High. Yeshua bore a payment demanded by Satan.

#68

Oh, whoops. I confused Penal Substitution with Substitutionary Atonement…

#69

What you are asking about here, Cindy, is nothing less than the central feature that makes the entire gospel relevant. For everyone. Atonement; not appeasement, (we’ve no need to effect God’s stance towards us; He’s already completely in our corner…) but to make us as one again. (To say “again” assumes an original condition of “oneness” – that condition in which we were created… There are problems with this approach of course; see some of Tom T’s posts in his corner which touch upon this…) Restoration and Reconciliation also approach this task – this relational reality – of making us “one” again. Both restoration and reconciliation imply a return to a former state, or condition, or mindset.

But there has intruded a huge problem; atonement is that problem’s solution. So it’s incredibly important to identify that problem…

… See it as un-payable legal infraction; your solution is penal substitution - payment of penalty.
See it as lostness; your solution to regaining oneness is to be found again.
See it as estrangement; your solution is restoration of relationship - adoption even.
See it as loss of our sense of identity, and worth; your solution is to regain a focus on our sonship.
See it as being imprisoned by the forces of darkness; your solution is the light of truth which hides nothing.
See it as bondage and slavery; your solution is that Christ has ransomed you! Those images – and more! – are all richly represented in scripture.

Our problem (from which Atonement is the escape…) is also likened to darkness. Which implies ignorance; lack of knowledge; unawareness of foundational realties…

What might those realities be?

– God is the source of our very being… Birthed from His very breath, we are His offspring; His children. His image resides within us; badly as we may have abused it.

–Underlining this reality, God comes Himself – in the person of His Son – as personal witness to His kinship with us. Not a mission to be entrusted to a creature, God comes Himself. Incarnation. Immanuel. God with us.

–Life comes from God; not from chance, and favored randomness plus time. Death in this realm is a mere temporal curiosity; it has no actual power. The cross amply demonstrates this reality; deaths greatest victory – the claiming as victim God Himself – is rendered a mere cruel hoax. For the grave has not power over life. That’s the kind of light which liberates…

–Given that all Life comes from God, it is inescapable that we are all brothers. The Atonement calls us to live that reality. The Atonement unabashedly requires us to treat all humanity as God does; as family.

–Universalism is merely the embrace of the realities of the Cross:
our reconciliation with God;
our essential origins from Him;
thus our kinship with all humanity;
“connection” with God is Life;
our participation in the great rescue mission of the Cross; – sharing the Good News!

In the Atonement, God comes to us Himself – not via some intermediary. He seizes the initiative; He is relentless in His pursuit. The Atonement is our invitation to embrace humanity as God has. This embrace does not recommend us to God, rather it demonstrates our recognition that we too are part of the great river of God’s humanity. The very humanity God has come to save.

At the Cross, to effect Atonement, God teaches us - reminds us - who we are, that we matter profoundly to Him, and that the battle is His - not ours… The cross calls us home again; to rest, to restoration, to family. No mere legal accounting, the cross demonstrates His authorship of Life, His unity and bond with His creation, and His answer to the forces of darkness and despair and hopelessness. He triumphs over all of these and bids us share in His victory. The Atonement is God’s proof of His solidarity with us - His creation.

Huge huge topic – the depths of which shall enthrall us on into eternity.

Bobx3

#70

Hi Cindy,

I am glad that you gave us up to four options in this poll because my view is a combination of Governmental, Healing, and Ransom/Christus Victor :slight_smile:

#71

Thanks for voting, James! :slight_smile:

I’ll have to read your post again later, Bobx3. Too much going on here :confused: and I think I may be a little ADD. It’s hard for me to tune out distractions. It looks good and worth another read when I can concentrate.

Love to all, Cindy

#72

put like that, i don’t think i can believe Christus Victor. i can’t imagine that God would owe anyone any kind of ransom. that would imply He negotiates with terrorists :astonished: . i may be missing the point here, but as someone who does not believe in a literal satan (except as a locus of human evil (new favourite word, locus)), i find it even harder to understand this view.

sadly i don’t know enough about the alternative viewpoints to really say for certain what perspective i am…but saying what i’m not is a decent start. substitutionary atonement to me feels flawed.

however, you (WAAB) posted a link to a Christus Victor article (which may have been relinked above, i’m too lazy to check atm), which i thought was amazing. so i willingly concede that i might be missing the point here.

#73

Since I see Satan as metaphorical rather than a real thing, and Christus Victor is victory both over death (spiritual) and evil (Satan), I don’t have a problem with it.

But if we consider Satan a separate being, yes. But having Satan as a separate being never made sense to me, anyway.

#74

Corpselight,

Considering what I’ve read so far, it seems there are a number of different angles from which people view Christus Victor. In the view apparently espoused by CS Lewis (as seen in “Wardrobe,” God does in fact “owe” a ransom to the devil (at least metaphorically). This may not be Lewis’ fully orbed view, as it’s a parable and one written primarily for children, however. The Eastern Orthodox Church apparently represents that God did what had to be done and in this sense “paid” what needed to be paid, though more to the situation and the circumstance than to any force or entity.

I’m with you on this one. I’m not decided on whether the devil is a discrete personality or not, but even if he is, I can’t see God owing him anything or not being able to take what He desires to take from him – unless of course to do so would cause harm or fail to bring complete restoration to the one He desires to save – that would be us.

Love in Jesus, Cindy

#75

Bobx3,

I just reread your post, and it is well worth rereading. Thanks! I agree with you that this is central and vital. It certainly ties in with God’s eternal purpose in creating to begin with. God is so terribly awesomely beautiful. I don’t think we’ll ever come to the end of exploring His infinite greatness and loveliness, but it is an amazing journey that keeps calling me onward.

Love in Him, Cindy

#76

I don’t see it so much as owing the devil, but again from the story angle. God subjected creation to the bondage of corruption, so that He could set us free. He led Israel into Egypt by bringing the famine on the land, knowing what would happen to them, so that He could set them free and show who He is.

He has shut up all in disobedience so that He might show mercy on all, oh the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God. Who has known the mind of the Lord (it would be cruel from our POV for Him to subject us to bondage only to release us later) or who has been His counselor, who has given Him a gift that it might be repaid.

For from Him, through Him and to Him are ALL things. A M E N

How can you not get excited when you hear Paul break out into such glorious praise at the glimpse of the story he was given. I know I do, I can’t ever stop that quote without finishing it. GLORY

#77

Yay, who is the other person who voted Satisfaction/Penal Substitution? :smiley: