The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Poll: What's Your Theory of Atonement?

Which Are You? (You may choose more than one option)

  • Satisfaction/Penal Substitution
  • Ransom/Christus Victor
  • Moral Influence
  • Recapitulation
  • Governmental
  • Scapegoat
  • Healing
  • Kaleidoscope
  • Not sure

0 voters

Lately I’ve been thinking about the atonement. It always bothered me, the idea that God required blood or He would not forgive sins. But then we have, “Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.” And it has troubled me, the idea of an innocent man dying for the guilty. No western court of law would allow such a thing. But of course, there is the sacrificial system with the innocent animal dying for the sins of the people. So the penal substitution system seems to have some back-up at least.

Yet I’ve been reading Robin Parry’s “All Shall Be Well,” and just finished the section on Gregory MacDonald. There are hints of a different theory of atonement, based on the idea that it was we who needed the blood, not God. This appealed to me since I’ve been pondering in this direction anyway.

and

There seems to be an awful lot here about our mind-set . . . the way we think. Could it be the whole problem has been within ourselves, that we’re somehow wrong headed, and that is what the atonement is about? Renewing our minds?

I can’t quite get my head around this. The author of the MacDonald article said that this view of the atonement is more Eastern Orthodox. I confess I hadn’t even known there were other views of the atonement than the one I’d been taught. Can anyone explain it to me?

Thanks!

Cindy

Hey Cindy,
This is an interesting several part article about “Christus Victor”, another view on atonement. Check it out.
Chris

therebelgod.com/cross_intro.shtml

I’m most probably Christus Victor. I’m still working out the many details though. I know of no one comprehensive work on this atonement model, though there are a few books that do specifically treat it. Aulén who wrote the definitive historical-introduction (Christus Victor, 1931), likens the Bible to a dramatic story that describes a victory over sin. I think it’s inherently more appealing to universalists and pacifists (who can perhaps see more clearly, the triumph of radical love over sin). To Aulén the atonement (the whole story that climaxes in Yeshua) resists cold systematization.

MacDonald’s view, whilst ambigious, seems to be Christus Victor (the Eastern Orthodox view). This was the view of C.S. Lewis also. The view you are describing as “renewing our minds” may be the Moral Influence model.

I think the atonement is one of those huge over-arching doctrines that affects every facet of our theologies. I couldn’t tell you mine exactly because it’s a large story to tell, but mainly because I haven’t really sorted through every facet yet. Any explanation I could provide would probably be very flawed and wouldn’t represent Christus Victor fairly. But I can state that Penal Substitution largely depends on a pagan understanding of Hebrew sacrifice. Christus Victor, as far as I understand, doesn’t. “Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins” is misleading when divorced from its context. Hebrews 9:22 says: “And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”. Two quick things to note here, firstly, forgiveness is predominately deliverance from slavery, not appeasement from a haughty, blood-lusting god. Secondly, sacrifices in the Hebrew scriptures were also offered in times of obedience and victory too, and when offered were not always blood offerings (grain and fruit sacrifices were welcome). Yonah details that the whole city of Nineveh received forgiveness through repentance alone. So whatever the writer of Hebrews might be saying here, there is no reason to believe that one can or must buy appeasement with blood (Yeshua’s or anyone else’s). It is Penal Substitution atonement and this foreign notion of sacrifice (amongst other views foreign to the Tanakh) that Jews find so difficult. A dear fundamentalist friend of mine runs a Christian camp and in the dining hall there is a large (rather foreboding) sign declaring the misquote “without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins”. Needless to say, the Orthodox Jews who annually attend this camp can easily recognize the foreign theology – it’s too bad that they probably attribute that to Christianity in general and not just Penal Substitution atonement.

With the strong prevalence of PSA in Protestantism knowing that there are reasonable alternatives is, I think, comforting and liberating. I recommend reading the Four Views: The Nature of the Atonement (Eds. Beilby and Eddy, 2006) for a great overview and defense of the stronger models. Boyd does a great job of outlining Christus Victor, and in my opinion, seemed the strongest. I recommended some works to I Sit In Awe on the book reading thread. You may be interested in considering these also. I really wish you the best with this Cindy!

Cindy, you may also want to turn this thread into a poll. It would be interesting to see where everyone is on atonement theology.

Over the last several years I have endeavoured to find out what I would have been taught if I had been born around 95AD. What would have been the simple truths that I would have heard at the feet of the Apostle John in his last days here on earth.

Let me tell you, along the way I have had to discard a whole lot of luggage that has accumulated over the last two thousand years of “Christian tradition”. In seeking the truth I have had to make a few course corrections on several doctrinal points that have become entrenched in our western Christian dogma. My search has caused me to go from being a Pre-tribulation position to a Post-Tribulation (not a big deal for most), from a Traditional Church Structure to a House Church advocate (a little bigger deal for some). I have gone from Penal Substitution to a Christus Victor or Redemption/Ransom Theology (Whoa! trending lightly were others dare not go) and now to a Ultimate Redemption or Evangelical Biblical Universalist view of Eschatology. But in the process my heart and mind has been exposed to the grandeur of a heavenly Father’s love not only for myself but for the whole world as well.

One of the books that really helped me nail down this issue was a small book by Gustaf Aulen called CHRISTUS VICTOR an Historical Study of the Three Main Types of the Idea of Atonement.

Hi Cindy,

I reject the idea of penal substitutionary atonement. I don’t believe that God punished Jesus on the cross instead of punishing us in order to make it possible for Him to forgive us. I don’t believe that God is legally bound – or bound by His Justice – to punish every sin.

Atonement is an interesting study. The word only appears in the NT in Rom 5:11, and is the same word translated elsewhere as “reconciliation.”

See: blueletterbible.org/lang/lex … 643&sstr=0

Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement2643.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling2643 of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation2643;

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation2643.

Wikipedia has a good overview of the different atonement theories: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity

Sonia

Thanks so much, Everyone!

I just downloaded The Nature of the Atonement for my Kindle and ordered Christus Victor from Amazon. Am looking forward to reading your web links, and I will be back.

Love in Him, Cindy

Hi Cindy,

The father of the prodigal son didn’t need to satisfy his wrath by killing a chicken and splashing the blood around. He didn’t say, “Justice must be served, so I will beat up my innocent wife.” Rather, he forgave his stupid son the moment he walked out the door. The father took the pain and the loss into his own heart and buried them there. His love disarmed the son’s evil of its power. The metaphorical blood that he shed was his own.

The son stumbles home after languishing for a time in hell. He has a shrewd plan to get some food into his belly. He still does not know his father. Then he sees his old dad running breakneck towards him. He sees the tears, the anguish in his face, and the boy is overthrown. He will never be the same. The power that transformed the prodigal son was the revelation of his father’s love.

This is my theory of the atonement. Christ is the revelation of the Father’s love, the irresistible power that changes stone into flesh.

Cindy, I came to the same place as you and my hang up, too, was the vs. in Heb. about their being no forgiveness without blood. I was afraid to read Hebrews for a while. I become more and more convinced every day that we are not understanding the blood right. There is just something intuitively wrong with God needing blood to fix things. It just doesn’t fix things. It doesn’t seem like God’s way at all. He’s not some Aztec/Mayan God that is pleased with killing. If God needed payment and got it, what did he forgive? I’ve become more convinced that justice is to set things straight and that the purpose of the cross is to draw us to Him. Plus, I’ve become less convinced that what we need is to have our sin overlooked. We need a heart change and this seems the crux of the issue. It makes sense that God must deal with our hearts, cannot let us continue in sin that leads to death. He doesn’t care as much about the ideas that we say we believe, if we buy the atonement theory, but whether or not we love. I could go on and on. I’m not sure I’m at a place where I can explain everything very well, but I’m willing, now, to speak up and question what the blood means because I’ve got a big hunch something is very wrong. There are so many nuances. I’ve realized that I can agree to certain language and yet be affirming something completely different. Like, I think that Jesus’ death appeased God’s wrath because as we come to him we avoid it. The purpose of wrath is to turn people and Jesus turns us. Also, I think it pleased God to give us his Son, that he would lay down his life. But, I think it was evil men ultimately that killed him. What did God take pleasure in, The beating as payment or the fact that his Son followed the way of love, even to the point of the death, and would lead many others to Him? I’m still working out my understanding, but I see the blood as communicating to the people that God is making good on his promise to restore things. He gives himself to accomplish what is in our interest. It’s his grace and mercy that will see us thru. Interesting that so many of us that have commented here embrace Christus Victor. We should do a poll.

When evil is done, life (in some measure) is lost and someone must pay. When the evil-doer unwillingly pays, it’s called wrath and vengeance. When the evil-doer willingly pays, it’s called penance and restitution. When the innocent person unwilling pays, it’s called injustice. When the innocent person willingly pays, it’s called forgiveness. Each of these entail a loss, a “shedding of blood”.

Beautiful.

Incidentally, I’ve just started reading Brad Jersak’s Stricken By God? It has, I think, 8 theologians lay out their atonement theory and covers the ones mentioned here and more besides. I’ve only just started it, so when I’m done I’ll let you know if it’s good

The wages of sin is death. Something has to die to pay the wages owed. In the OT Jews who sinned would kill and put an animal on the altar to atone for their sin. The animal took their place and payed the wages of sin on their behalf. The high priest would do this annually for the whole nation in addition to that he would place his hand upon a goat’s head to symbolically transfer the nation of Israel’s sin and guilt to the goat . (Where the name “escape goat” originated) These sacrifices were a type and shadow of what Jesus did for mankind on the cross. Jesus took our place on the cross, bore our sin and sicknesses, and paid the wages or penalty of sin on our behalf! Not to believe in this substitution is puzzling and sad.

Okay, by popular request, here is the poll. It seems to me that a person may hold to more than one of these options, so I set it so that you can choose as many as you like. (Though I don’t think you could reasonably believe ALL of them.) :wink:

If you’d like to see another option, let me know and I’ll add it. I’m really enjoying reading the web links you all have suggested, and also your comments. It’s exciting to be exploring another aspect of our Lord – everything about Him is marvelously beautiful.

Blessings, Cindy

Great theory, Alan. You brought the tears to my eyes, and thanks, Amy, for sharing and thinking aloud with me. I’m looking forward to your book review, Jael. Thanks everyone!

Aaron,
It would work better for you to say that Christ accepted the wages on our behalf. In Romans, “sin” is personified as a master who pays his slaves for their service with death. This is their earned “wage”. God, on the other hand, rewards his slaves not with an earned wage, but a free gift – life.

Sonia

Jesus accepted to pay the wages of sin which is death on our behalf. If God did not impute the sins of the world unto us who do you think He imputed them unto? You do understand my brief explanation of the OT sacrifices, right? Who do you think is the type and shadow of those OT sacrifices? How can you not see this substitutionary work in the OT sacrifices and Jesus fulfilling those sacrifices in the NT on the cross? Jesus’ substitutionary work becomes our reality when you accept Him as Lord and Savior.

Cindy, perhaps you could add Governmental atonement, Scapegoat atonement, Healing atonement, Kaleidoscopic atonement and “Agnostic” (or some other “I have no idea” variant)? I know there is much overlap between these atonement models (and I might be being pedantic) but it might help us more accurately explain what we believe.

Thanks for making it a poll. I chose Ransom/Christus Victor and Moral Influence – the latter being of secondary importance.

Okay . . . :wink:

I don’t know what they signify yet (except the scapegoat), but here they are!

Revival,

Ah, yes, well, let me 'splain. There is an author who wrote a book called The Evangelical Universalist. The author, you see, is an Evangelical in his theology. He is Universalist in his soteriology/eschatology. Hence, the title of the book. Then he decided to start a forum, which he named after the book. However, he did not make a rule restricting the membership to Evangelicals (or Universalists, for that matter). Therefore, all sorts of diversity is allowed in this little community, from run-of-the-mill Evangelicals, to Evangelical Universalists, to those that disbelieve the deity of Jesus. We even have a member that denies that God is the Creator of mankind in his fallen state. The diversity forces us all to continuously refine our views, and for most of us, that means an ever-closer look at Scripture. Doesn’t get much more Evangelical than that.

:smiley: