Brothers
What do you mean that’s not what happened? God required an animal to pay the penalty for their sin. Read Lev 4.
Lev 4:14-15
**14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.
15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.**
I suggest you read the OT more (Ezekiel, Psalms), and talk to some Jews. Animal sacrifice was most definitely not the only or sole way to pay for your sins. Furthermore, animal sacrifice is believed by present-day Jews to have been performed for their benefit, not God’s. That’s why there’s so much ritualistic nature about animal sacrifices.
Brothers
Also Read Hebrews 9 and 10 for the animal sin sacrifices in the OT being a type and shadow of Jesus.
What? What other way did God establish for the Jews sins to be atoned for, bird?
I suggest you do some more research on “the day of atonement” in the OT.
Animal sacrifice might have been one means of obtaining forgiveness, but there were also non-animal sacrifices and other means that did not involve any sacrifices at all. The Book of Yonah shows that an entire community condemned to judgement was forgiven because they simply repented. What animal paid the penalty for their sin, Revival?
I’m not denying a substitutionary atonement. But Hebrew sacrifice is about drawing nearer to Yahweh in praise, not simply assuaging the penalties of an angry god.
The #1 method, and the ONLY method that was always required was repentance. There were also secondary methods for all the rituals in case the family was poor or something.
Consider: 21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. [Ezekiel 18]
Also, if you really want to compare Jesus to an animal sacrifice, he broke all the requirements for an animal sacrifice. Furthermore, humans were not an acceptable sacrifice anyway…
Animal sacrifice “Might have been one means”, brothers? There was only ONE sin sacrifice God required. I suggest you read Hebrews 9 and 10 over and over and Leviticus 16 over and over.
What do you mean Jesus broke all the requirements for an animal sacrifice? why do you suppose Jesus is called the lamb of God?
Repentance means to change ones mind or to turn away from sin. But there was still a animal sin sacrifice that had to be payed for the sin committed in the OT. God set up the law and sacrifices for a reason, bird. I suggest you read Hebrews 9 and 10 and Lev 16 over and over until you understand what God required payment for sin. Also do a research on the day of atonement.
Yes, I believe there is only one effective “sacrifice” but we clearly differ on how we understand that sacrifice to work. You haven’t adequately responded to anything I (or anyone else) have said. This is largely why I have ceased participating in discussions with you. If you want to argue for Penal Substitution atonement create a thread and I may (or may not) pick up the discussion there. This thread is to discover what everyone here believes and to explain alternative models to PSA (see the original post).
Humans cannot be used for sacrifice. Specific animals were used, in any case.
The sacrificed animal cannot be whipped or w/e. You can’t sacrifice something with blemish or some kind of a fault.
Sacrifices must be made at the temple altar.
There’s specific ritualism done with them.
Sacrificing without repentance is pointless.
God created the laws for a reason. Jesus doesn’t fit any of them. Jesus is as an invalid sacrifice. If you’re going to cling that they sacrifices were needed according to the law, you’re also going to have to admit Jesus was the sort of sacrifice that the Lord would really, really, really hate.
Jesus’s sacrifice has nothing to do with the animal sacrifices really, except that both served as means for repentance, perhaps (and this is Moral Influence).
Probably as a reference, to, well, Isaiah 53. It’s a metaphor.
Yes, and if you read about the purposes of sacrifices, you’ll see that the sacrifice itself wasn’t the point. For a reason, exactly. But it’s not the reason you think.
Gotcha.
Why don’t you go read Ezekiel?
Hey Revival,
When you can show me how it’s perfect justice to kill a perfectly innocent man for crimes someone else committed, then I will send you my drawing of a square circle.
1 Peter 3:18
Weymouth New Testament
because Christ also once for all died for sins, the innocent One for the guilty many, in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,
Go ahead and send my drawing of a square circle, Allan. 
Revival,
I’m already familiar with penal substitution. Would you please go do this somewhere else? I can’t read your posts anyhow. You’re welcome to argue and argue, but please don’t do it here.
Thanks,
Cindy
Yes. We killed the innocent one. It was a gross injustice committed against Jesus by evil men.
Jesus forgave us, revealing the heart of God.
Jesus died, revealing the love, humility and long-suffering of God.
Jesus rose from the dead, revealing the power and wisdom of God, and the hope of all mankind.
I’m sorry but I have to disagree with this one little phrase, mainly because the scriptures disagree with you. Did Jesus die spiritually in place of us? No, 1 Peter 3 says
**For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison. **
If the wages of sin is “spiritual death” as you ECTers love to say, why is it that once Jesus died he was made ALIVE in the spirit? Answer that one 
. Also if the wages of sin is eternal separation and torment in a Lake of Fire, why isn’t Jesus in the Lake suffering for all eternity? I thought he became Sin for us? If the penalty for man’s sin is eternal then the punishment of Jesus should have been eternal, see how the math doesn’t add up?
Yes, Jesus did die spiritually in place of us otherwise he would not need to be made alive in his spirit. Becoming sin involves spiritual death. Spiritual death means being void of the life of God to be separated from Him. Jesus went to hell for 3 days and was rasied by the glory of the Father.
I voted “Kaleidoscope” because I believe that the Atonement is multifaceted, no one perspective can contain all that happened in the sacrifice of Christ.
Through it Christ triumphed over all - evil, death, and the grave, breaking all powers of darkness, triumphing over them. Through the Atonement He revealed how to truly live in love, moral influence. He was our Scapegoat. And by His stripes we are healed. And He died for our sins. He accomplished any and all payment of sins that we and/or God perceives to be necessary.
I think many of these perspectives though are not meant to effect any changes in God, but to effect changes in us. God forgives because God loves us, and love keeps no record of wrongs. The sacrifice of Christ doesn’t enable God to be forgiving, but is an expression of His forgiveness and helps enable us to understand and receive His forgiveness. The sacrifice of Christ doesn’t somehow move God to heal for God IS Life itself; rather, the sacrifice of Christ reveals to us how much God loves us so that we might embrace Life and be healed (spirit, soul, and body). The sacrifice of Christ does not “effect” Him triumphing over evil, death, and the grave because He is God and in control of all and never was out of control; rather, it reveals to us that He overcomes evil, death, and the grave for us because He loves us.
It’s similar to baptism, prayer, or any other means of forgiveness and grace. Baptism doesn’t move God to forgive us; rather, it helps us receive, embrace, appropriate God’s forgiveness. I’ve come to see salvation to be not about us someday getting into heaven, but about getting heaven into us today!
Very good Sherman. I was going to say the whole thing is God’s story to us, its all for our learning. The creation, fall, redemption are all one story, the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. The reason Jesus died was because its the central point of the story, its the beginning and end, alpha-omega.
Here’s a nice description of Christos Victor that works well with Moral Influence and what I believe in general: experimentaltheology.blogspot.co … s-not.html