Post Mortem Reconciliation?

[revdrew61]

Two friends and colleagues (one is, coincidentally, my wife!) have homed in on what I agree is the weakest part of the EU case. Where is the biblical evidence for the possibility of post mortem reconciliation? Here is my initial response:-

Hi Caroline (and Billsbury!),

You recently asked about this idea which is perhaps the weakest part of the EU argument. Here are a few quick thoughts - and as before; you don’t have to agree with me!

1. Post mortem consciousness is not disputed between Christian Universalists and believers in the traditional doctrine of hell. We all agree that people will be raised to new life, it is just that trad hell believers hold that this new life will consist of everlasting punishment.

2. It is a logical step that if you are convinced that (a) scripture teaches that all people will in the end be reconciled to God and that (b) we know many people die without being reconciled to God then it follows that © many people will be reconciled to God after death. But we don’t just want logic, we want positive biblical evidence, so…

3. A few verses which indicate the possibility of postmortem repentance and reconciliation are (all from ESV):

1 Peter 4.6 “For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.”

1 Corinthians 3.15 “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Philippians 2.10-11 “so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

4. I also like 1 Corinthians 13.12 which contrasts the way we see things now with the way we will see things in the next life “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” I don’t believe anyone will make a fully informed decision to reject God’s love.

5. Then there is “Gregory MacDonald’s” (Robin Parry’s) argument from Revelation chapters 20 to 22 that the gates of the New Jerusalem are never closed. The only reality outside is the Lake of Fire - death and hell were destroyed in Rev 20.14. The gates are not open for anyone to leave (who would?) but for people who have been purified in the lake of fire to come in. This is what happens as we see the kings of the earth coming in (21.24), the same kings of the earth who had been cast into the lake of fire. So in the end everyone will answer the Spirit and the Bride’s offer (22.17) and come in.

• Rev is a difficult book and I’m not sure his argument is completely convincing, but it is worthy of consideration!

If you want to dialogue about this - great! If you haven’t got time or would rather not - equally great - no problem either way.

With love and prayers, Drew

What do others on the EU forum think? Can you help us out?

[Lefein]

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

[size=85]The Bible tells us that the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. This is to say, that the gifts and calling of God are not drawn away, revoked, or turned back towards himself who gave it - and here I will express that without repentance means also “without deadline, or expiration, or ceasing to be, or canceled”. In essence, God’s call never falls silent and neither are his grace-gifts revoked.

In Romans 6:23 we are told that the gift of God is eternal life, or “zoe aionios”, a “charisma” or grace-gift which is never revoked, and indeed the word for gift in the Greek is “charisma” which means “grace-gift” - this is the same word used for gifts in Romans 11:29 - these “grace-gifts” God shall not revoke, nor repent of, nor cancel.

But there is a very important message in these verses that we must surely see, and that is that not only are the gifts of God not repented of, or canceled, but the very calling of God is not repented of. The Greek word for “calling” is “klesis” which according to the Strong’s Concordance means an invitation - Glory to the Highest in his infinite mercy, just as the gifts of God are not revoked neither is the invitation to partake of his kingdom ever canceled!

It is here that we find a Biblically defendable position for the idea that the chance to receive Salvation does not end at death, as we are often taught to believe - because the invitation to join the banquet, to partake in the grace-gift of eternal life, which comes only by salvation in Jesus Christ is never, ever, ever repented![/size]

This might be helpful.

The key word is “Never” and that should surely include “not even in the face of Death/Hades/Hell/Sheol”.

Similar to how “Never will the gates of Death/Hades/Hell/Sheol prevail against…” emphasises “never”.

Never means Never. And there is no qualifying statement of “except for when a person dies” in the ‘gifts never revoked’ verse. Gifts like the gift of the call to salvation, eternal life, grace, mercy, etc.

[Sherman]

Let’s see…
Jonah, died, cried out in Affliction to God from Sheol, the realm of the dead, cast from the sight of the Lord, with the bars of the earth closed in around him forever. And the Lord heard his cry and brought him up from the pit.
Paul speaks affirmatively of baptism for the dead in 1 Cor. 15:29.
Peter speaks of Jesus preaching the Gospel to the spirits in prison, those who rejected the word and salvation of God during the ministry of Noah, resulting in them “now live forever with God in the Spirit” (1 Pet. 4:6).
Jesus warned of Gehenna, which to the Pharisee at least, would have spoken primarily of something similar to Purgatory for unrighteous Jew and Gentile alike.
Jesus also warned of Chastizement, remedial punishment, kolasis in Mat. 25:46.
Paul also warns of believers facing the fire of judgment where their good works are purified and their worthless works are burnt up.
Paul speaks of turning a brother over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit might be saved.
And Revelations Lake of Fire and brimstone also has remedial punishment connotations to it.
. Brimstone, theon, divine fire, sulfur was burnt as incense by the Greeks and Romans for spiritual purification and physical healings.
. Basanizo, torment, is the testing of precious metals in the fiery refining process.

So for me, there is more than enough evidence that suggests that any chastizement/punishment that we (any/all of us) might receive in the life to come is remedial in nature, not vindictive. But of course, scripture is focused on the here and now, not the here after! Even the focus of the Gospel is not “Repent so that you can go to heaven some day.” It is “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand - within reach TODAY!” It’s about living right today, right relationships with God today and with each other.

[SLJ]

I know a lot of people stumble at the fact there is nothing that says flat out: “After people die, they will repent and be saved.”

But for me, the point is that God has already said that He loves and wants to save everyone. Jesus came to save the world. Jesus says the good shepherd brings home the lost sheep.

Why should we think death changes any of this?

I am convinced with Paul, that nothing–not even death can separate us from the Love of God which is in Christ.

Resurrection is proof that death is no barrier to God.

I find sufficent scriptural proof in all the statements of God’s desire and intention to save–combined with the scriptural testimony that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Sonia

[amy]

Revdrew61, in writing the letter to my pastor and explaining the difference between us mainly being that I believe God can work past the grave, I realized that this is what would be problematical since he’d feel there wasn’t sufficient reason for hope. I enjoyed everyone’s responses and find them helpful too.

[revdrew61]

Thanks everyone - these responses are really helpful. Lefein, I wonder where you copied and pasted that from - is it your own work or from a book? Sherman, Sonia, Amy - thanks! Its not me you need to convince, but you’ve given me some good leads here. God bless!

[Sherman]

My own thoughts/work.

[Alex_Smith]

The only thing I’d add, is that, as far I can tell, up until Calvin, belief in postmortem salvation (for at least a few) was mainstream (see Even Augustine taught post-mortem salvation). One of the reasons given was:

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Which implies there are some things that can be forgiven in the age to come.

God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future

[Lefein]

Lefein, I wonder where you copied and pasted that from - is it your own work or from a book?

It came to me one day in study/prayer time. So it is from my own study. I hope it proves useful!

[Gremio53]

Hey guys, I feel like a lot of the quotes you use are taken quite out of context. Now I don’t deny that God could not save anyone after their death, but I have found, through thorough reading and studying of the scripture that he is quite clear that without faith in him, there is death. Never are there any examples of people being saved after death.

In the end it is quite clear that all will be judged. Those whom are in the book of life will be ushered into everlasting life with God. Those who are not will be thrown into the lake of fire, along with hell and such. I do not understand where you can then jump to the conclusion that somehow people will be saved from that when it is clear that people’s choices on EARTH DO MATTER.

John 5:28-29: “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

This is clearly referring to what we DID in our lives, is it not?

Grace and Love,

Johnny

[revdrew61]

Hi Johnny,

I agree with you that we all need to avoid quoting scripture out of context and hope I have not been guilty of that on this page.

Would you also agree with me that we should avoid reading our presuppositions into scripture? I am not sure where you are coming from but, for example, you quote John 5.28-29 “…those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” are you assuming that this word “condemned” is shorthand for “punished with everlasting conscious torment in hell”? This is certainly an assumption a lot of people make, so whenever Jesus says anything to do with judgement, condemnation, punishment or whatever - they assume he is affirming their doctrine of hell. Many of us would argue that this is a highly dubious assumption.

I would also argue that “condemned” may not be the best translation of “kriseos”, which according to the lexicon means a decision or judgement. Why should we assume that this decision, judgement (or even punishment for that matter) must be everlasting conscious torment with no hope of reprieve?

I and most people on this forum agree with you that people’s choices on earth matter and we do not deny the reality of hell. We do claim that the Bible clearly teaches that hell will not be the final destination of any human being. A good article which responds to common misunderstandings about Christian Universalist views on hell is this short article by Robin Parry. [Robin: “Bell’s Hells: seven myths about universalism”)

Anyway welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy the discussions.

Peace, Andrew

[Gem]

Interesting to find this thread. I’ve been on my own journey of seeking the Lord and though I have been tilting universal, my thoughts on it do not involve any “second chances” after death. I was surprised to find that the people here believe that people can die, go to hell, then make a decision to respond favorably to God’s love post mortem.

I believe that “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”.
I think “hell” is on earth similar to how the Kingdom of God/heaven/light is in our midst.
Perhaps the very experience of death is a baptism of fire for those who wait that long and have not bowed the knee?

In the parable of the workers in the vineyard in Matt 20, the ones hired in the last hour got the same reward as those who had come on the team earlier. In 1 John 2-3 excerpts

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister** is **still ****in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister[c] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
**
But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is**. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

(all of the above is from 1 John 2 and 3)

Do you see how, contemporary to John there were “many antichrists”?
I think that everyone has an internal war between Christ and antichrist [old/carnal man and new/spiritual man] and it may take until the “last hour” for the antichrist (who does not really belong to us) to be expelled.

Will not everyone see Christ once they lay aside this earthly tent?
“when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for** we shall see him as he is**” (1 Jn 3:2)
“No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” (1 Jn 3:6)
Will not everyone see Christ once they lay aside this earthly tent?

[Gem]

the gates of the New Jerusalem are never closed. The only reality outside is the Lake of Fire

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the* lake which burns with fire and brimstone**, which is the second death. Rev 21:18
*

Perhaps this is a “baptismal pool” where the carnal man/sinful flesh finally perishes for good?
The spiritual man rises up out of the pool, leaving the carnal man behind forever, and enters the New Jerusalem

[Gem]

I have one more on this. I was floating this idea to my ladies Bible Study: how I see the Lake of Fire as a place of baptism where antichrist/carnal man goes to his final destruction and one of my friends said she read something that fits this theory Luke 8:26-39

A man has a legion of demons in him. Jesus is speaking to the demons,* “And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.” Luke 8:31*

He doesn’t send them into the abyss but into a herd of swine (which run straight for the water), the man goes from completely wild, naked, cutting himself to: “the man from whom the demons had departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed and in his right mind.” (8:35)

Could the abyss the Legion feared be the same as the “lake of fire” where all “antichrists” wind up in the last hour?

*18 Dear children, this is the last hour; **and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. ***

[SLJ]

Hi Gem,
I would not equate the abyss and the Lake of Fire, because in Revelation, beings are released from imprisonment in the abyss and later thrown into the Lake of Fire.

I take John to be simply referring to people who have corrupted the message of Christ and left the fellowship.

Sonia

[TotalVictory]

Where is the biblical evidence for the possibility of post mortem reconciliation?

Good stuff revdrew!
But a minor (maybe not so minor?) point is that according to Colosians 1 reconciliation has already happened!
In Robin Parry’s great summary of Evangelical Universalism – see it here:

Robin Parry's 2010 audio talks on Christian Universalism

Thank you Chawn Hill Church for inviting Robin as a guest to encourage thinking about what ‘Christ will reconcile all things’ means. They kindly made the recording of the talks publicly available! However, they are only Robin views and do NOT reflect the views of Chawn Hill Church. I spent a few hours cleaning up the audio on this talk as best I could (some audience questions still hard to hear but you can guess what they were from Robin’s answers). I think it was well worth it, as it’s an exce…

he puts it this way…

Indeed, I think we should go further and say that in Christ’s resurrection all humanity is already reconciled. There is nothing that needs adding to his work. It is enough and it is finished. Of course, to experience such reconciliation we must be united to Christ by the Spirit (through trust and baptism) but this is simply to make real in our lives (over an extended period of time) what is already a reality for us in Christ.
So God has already reconciled the world to himself in Christ (2 Cor 5:19). For God was pleased to have all his fulness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Col 1:19-20)
This peace-making is a thing of the past. Universal salvation is a present reality in the person of Jesus- our-representative! Universalism is not something we hope God might do; it is something that God has already achieved (in Christ). This is to deny the classical Arminian picture that Jesus only makes salvation possible. I maintain that it guarantees it will be actual.

So since it seems pretty obvious that this reconciliation isn’t actually experienced by all before their deaths, the promised experience of reconciliation can logically happen later – after death – it seems to me…

For me then the Phil 2 idea of every knee bowing and every tongue confessing,
along with the idea of the kings of the earth entering the city,
along with the idea so wonderfully expressed above by Lefein that God’s gift and call are NEVER revoked
=====> all add up to postmortem not reconciliation which is already a reality, but the experience of reconciliation.

But maybe that’s just being nitpicky…???..

TotalVictory
Bobx3

PS – adding to what Lefein says above: would it makes sense at all for God to continue calling and extending His gift if there was NO chance of it’s being accepted? I think not.
(by the way Lefein and revdrew, this goes along very well with the idea we talked about over in a thread titled “Filthy Still??” regarding the words in Revelation where God says let the filthy be filthy still… It was pointed out on that thread that this comment is made in the context of concurrent evangelism! Why would God be bothering with evangelizing if there was no hope of a response??!!!

[revdrew61]

Thanks for your thoughts Bob

[Alex_Smith]

Driscoll’s resent response to Is There a Second Chance for Salvation After Death?

[revdrew61]

There is so much wrong with this I don’t know where to begin…