Even Augustine taught post-mortem salvation

[Alex_Smith]

I consider it [ECT] the main failing of the Reformation that it not only did not ditch it, but actually entrenched it in a more insidious form than even Augustine taught.

F.W. Farrar has set forth the differences between modern ECT and the ancient view very well. Even Augustine taught post-mortem salvation.

I haven’t read much Augustine, but if that’s correct, that’s awesome, because the “Second Chance Myth” is a common criticism of EU.

[SLJ]

Is there a reference to where Augustine taught that?

Sonia

[Alex_Smith]

I emailed Bill, hopefully he’ll have some…

[Alex_Smith]

In his City of God and also in the Enchiridian. CF Farrar’s quotations from said works in Mercy and Judgment.

Anyone have access to any of these? I’ll also do some further digging myself…

[SLJ]

Here’s a link to City of God: ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102

[Alex_Smith]

Thanks Sonia!

Mercy And Judgment by Canon F.W. Farrar:
tentmaker.org/books/mercyand … t_ch1.html
archive.org/details/mercyand … 00farrgoog

Now I just need to find where Farrar references Augustine…

… Even St. Augustine thought that our prayers might at least secure for the lost a tolerabilior damnatio (2) …

… St. Augustine himself(5), like many others, inferred from Matt. xii. 31, 32, that forgiveness for some sins might be obtained for the dead by the prayers of the living. …

(2)Aug. Enchir. Ad Laurent. Ex.
(5)Aug. De Civ. Dei, xxi. 24.

So now to find (2) & (5) De Civ. Dei = “City of God”?

… St. Augustine says that ‘he had gone into the damnation of death, and was only liberated through the prayer of his sister, who was about to die for Christ.’(1) …

(1) Aug. De Anima, i. 10.

I just came across a stack of awesome references to Jesus going to Hell to preach and save, I must come back to it (tentmaker.org/books/mercyand … t_ch3.html Search for “ST. IGNATIUS”)

… He however puts off all discussion of the subject [mitigation] till some other opportunity.*(1) But – wavering on this subject of Eschatology, as he did again and again – he says in his Enchiridion (2) that there are propitiations for those who are not very bad, and that though for the very bad there are no means of aid, yet for the moderately bad (i.e. for the vast majority), though they be in hell, the sacrifices of the altar were advantageous to secure “either complete remission, or at least a more endurable damnation.” The last words, as Petavius and Emery both argue, show that he is here speaking of “hell,” and not of purgatory. Further on, commenting upon the text, “God will not forget to pity,” he says, “Let them suppose, if it pleases them, that the pains of the lost are, at certain intervals, mitigated…so that in His anger He still does not withhold His compassions, not by ending, but by alleviating, or giving a rest amid their torments.”(3) Albertus Magnus, followed by many schoolment, would again confine this remark to purgatory, but there can be no doubt that Sixtus of Siena (4) is right in saying that Augustine ultimately leaned to the theory of “mitigation.” For in his City of God (A.D. 426 or 427), in which we possess some of his latest thoughts, he says that if any wish to extend the expressions of the Psalms to “the torments of the impious,” by holding that these pains become milder and lighter, he has, at any rate, nothing to say against it.(5)

(1) “Sed de hac re diligentius disserendum est.” – In Ps. cv.
(2) Enchir. 110, ? I. On his uncertainties, see infra, pp. 188-195, supra, p. 63.
(3) “Poenas damnatorum certis temporum intervallis existment, si hoc eis placet, aliquatenus mitigari…ut in ira sua non tamen contineat miserationem suam non aeterno finem dando, sed levamen adhibendo, vel interponendo cruciatibus.” – Enchir.
(4) Sixt. Sen. Bibl. Sanct. V. 47. “Ab hac opinione Augustinus non omnino abhoruisse videtur.”
(5) De Civ. Dei, xxi. 24. “Quod quidem non ideo confirmo, quia non resisto” see p. 291.

[Alex_Smith]

Aug. De Civ. Dei, xxi. 24. = Augustine’s City of God, book 11, chapter 24

I finally found that on p350 of archive.org/stream/cityofgod … 7/mode/2up titled
“What It is to Have Christ for a Foundation. Who are they are who will be saved (as it were) by fire”
I then found what I think is the same thing on ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XXI.26.html “Chapter 26.—What It is to Have Christ for a Foundation, and Who They are to Whom Salvation as by Fire is Promised”.

Although it might also be : ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XXI.24.html “Chapter 24.—Against Those Who Fancy that in the Judgment of God All the Accused Will Be Spared in Virtue of the Prayers of the Saints.”

Or Search for “Quod quidem non ideo confirmo” on epiphanius.org/AugDeCiv/28/Chap24.html

After a 2 hour lunch break, I’ve run out of time to search any further, but it feels like I’m getting close!

[SLJ]

Hi Alex,

I found a relevant bit in this chapter (and haven’t looked at the others yet): ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XXI.24.html “Chapter 24.—Against Those Who Fancy that in the Judgment of God All the Accused Will Be Spared in Virtue of the Prayers of the Saints.”

For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. [Footnote: This contains the germ of the doctrine of purgatory, which was afterwards more fully developed by Pope Gregory I., and adopted by the Roman church, but rejected by the Reformers, as unfounded in Scripture, though Matt. xii. 32, and 1 Cor. iii. 15, are quoted in support of it.—P.S.] As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, “They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.” [Matt. xii. 32.]

[Alex_Smith]

Thanks Sonia. I think the second half, in particular, of that quote is helpful.

Something else to look into:

Also Luther believed in the possibility of post-mortem salvation but was not dogmatic on the subject.

[roofus]

Alex,
This one makes no sense to me as a quote:

Chapter 3, p75. Mercy And Judgment by Canon F.W. Farrar wrote:… St. Augustine says that ‘he had gone into the damnation of death, and was only liberated through the prayer of his sister, who was about to die for Christ.’(1) …

(1) Aug. De Anima, i. 10.

This sounds like Augustine is speaking of himself going into the damnation of death, but unless he had come back to life to write this, he is simply speaking of death spiritually…

[Alex_Smith]

From memory, the context is that Augustine is talking about a particular person who had gone to the “damnation of death” (which I assume is hell?) but that this person was liberated from there because this person had a Christian sister praying for him. However, we’d have to attempt to find “Aug. De Anima, i. 10.” to be sure.

[roofus]

From memory, the context is that Augustine is talking about a particular person who had gone to the “damnation of death” (which I assume is hell?) but that this person was liberated from there because this person had a Christian sister praying for him. However, we’d have to attempt to find “Aug. De Anima, i. 10.” to be sure.

Interesting, was it an unbeliever?

[Alex_Smith]

I assume so if he ended up in hell.

Sorry, I having trouble even finding “Aug. De Anima, i. 10.” in English

[roofus]

I assume so if he ended up in hell.

Sorry, I having trouble even finding “Aug. De Anima, i. 10.” in English

Do you think that Augustine thought that he knew who was in hell, that his guy had gone there?

[Alex_Smith]

Probably, as most Christians think they know who goes to hell i.e. 90% of the population, who die before repenting and becoming a Christian

[Alex_Smith]

Given Luke’s still not convinced by this, I’ve begun digging further…

St. Augustine, Enchiridion: On Faith, Hope, and Love.

Augustine"]There is no denying that the souls of the dead are benefited by the piety of their living friends, when the sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for the dead, or alms are given in the church. But these means benefit only those who, when they were living, have merited that such services could be of help to them. For there is a mode of life that is neither so good as not to need such helps after death nor so bad as not to gain benefit from them after death. There is, however, a good mode of life that does not need such helps, and, again, one so thoroughly bad that, when such a man departs this life, such helps avail him nothing. It is here, then, in this life, that all merit or demerit is acquired whereby a man’s condition in the life hereafter is improved or worsened. Therefore, let no one hope to obtain any merit with God after he is dead that he has neglected to obtain here in this life.

So, then, those means which the Church constantly uses in interceding for the dead are not opposed to that statement of the apostle when he said, “For all of us shall stand before the tribunal of Christ, so that each may receive according to what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”[size=75]236[/size] For each man has for himself while living in the body earned the merit whereby these means can benefit him after death. For they do not benefit all. And yet why should they not benefit all, unless it be because of the different kinds of lives men lead in the body? Accordingly, when sacrifices, whether of the altar or of alms, are offered for the baptized dead, they are thank offerings for the very good, propitiations for the not-so-very-bad non valde malis, and, as for the very bad–even if they are of no help to the dead–they are at least a sort of consolation to the living. Where they are of value, their benefit consists either in obtaining a full forgiveness or, at least, in making damnation [hell] more tolerable.

[size=75]236 Rom. 14:10; II Cor. 5:10.[/size]

[jaxxen]

Oh sure, NOW Augustine is considered a good guy and authoritative…

[Alex_Smith]

Finally found Aug. De Anima!

On the Soul and Its Origin

Augustine"]Concerning Dinocrates, however, the brother of St. Perpetua, there is no record in the canonical Scripture; nor does the saint herself, or whoever it was that wrote the account, say that the boy, who had died at the age of seven years, died without baptism; in his behalf she is believed to have had, when her martyrdom was imminent, her prayers effectually heard that he should be removed from the penalties of the lost to rest. Now, boys at that time of life are able both to lie, and, saying the truth, both to confess and deny. Therefore, when they are baptized they say the Creed, and answer in their behalf to such questions as are proposed to them in examination. Who can tell, then, whether that boy, after baptism, in a time of persecution was estranged from Christ to idolatry by an impious father, and on that account incurred mortal condemnation, from which he was only delivered for Christ’s sake, given to the prayers of his sister when she was at the point of death?What do you think?

[Alex_Smith]

Oh sure, NOW Augustine is considered a good guy and authoritative…

I’m sure he had a few helpful things to say (although not about ECT/P!). However I’m quoting him because Calvin loved him & if it can be shown he beleived in postmortem salvation, it would be neat

[stellar_renegade]

For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, “They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.” [Matt. xii. 32.]

Oooh, great point, Augustine!

I just keep getting more and more fodder for my future book!