The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Pre-marital sex


#21

I have already justified it with God’s Word. I am just curious to see if anyone else here believes as I do.


#22

A faithful husband or wife would not give that permission. (Does God give us permission to worship other gods?)

Beyond all understanding or merit, my beautiful wife has given me her heart. I hold it in sacred trust. She is now mine to nurture or to destroy. She has made herself utterly vulnerable to me. She trusts me. Physical nakedness is a symbol and expression of this deeper nakedness. This is what sexuality means. In reply, I give myself to her. It’s a sacred, scary, joyful, surprising, fruitful reciprocation of love that grows every more profound. It is probably the most holy, the most God-like thing we both shall ever do. I will not desecrate this by one day saying, “Honey. You know I love you, but hey. I’m a little bored right now. I think I’ll give myself to Sally for a while.”

Will she say, “Sure. That’s fine. Whatever.” Would this be a woman on fire with Godly love, devotion and faithfulness? Would she take my news with indifference? Rather, it would be a knife through her heart.

“Flee sexual immorality,” but if the woman is willing, that’s fine. “If a man looks on a woman with lust in his heart, he commits adultery,” but if she’s willing, that’s fine. “The marriage bed is holy”, but if your wife’s willing, sleep around. That’s fine.

Luke, you’ve been sold a lie. It will lead you to ruin. Don’t touch it with a barge pole.


#23

If you love her, it doesn’t. But if you love her, you’ll be life-lastingly committed also.

If you love her, you won’t make her share her place. If you make her share her place, I question the “love” in the relationship.

Because the platonic parenting sort of love you give to your children is not the same expression of love you give to your mate.

I could easily turn it around and say; if you can have sex with your wife, why can’t you have sex with your kids?

Just because you can love more than one child, doesn’t mean you can love more than one mate; in the same exact way that just because you can have sex with your wife, doesn’t mean you can have sex with your children. The expressions of love simply aren’t the same.

In my honest opinion, if you love your girlfriend with sufficient fullness, you won’t make her share that special place you’ve set aside for her in your heart, namely and especially the marriage bed.

Because it is foolish to play with fire you can’t handle.

I won’t specifically say either way at the moment. But all I know is that if my future wife decided she wanted multiple partners; it would be a vicious stab in the gut, and infact - when I had such a relationship where I was fully committed and found my beloved desiring others, it was exactly that.

It is a sin to be, because it makes a person share what they shouldn’t have to share - which is nothing short of passive thievery. Adultery in the heart, is adultery.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord God: that is my name: I will not give my glory to another, nor my praises to graven images. -Brenton’s Septuagint

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake I will do this for thee, because my name is profaned; and I will not give my glory to another.
-Brenton’s Septuagint

Proverb 12:4 A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband:
-Brenton’s Septuagint

(A crown is a glory)

In this case, it is. It is a true dichotomy; you either give yourself to your wife fully, or you share yourself with many and give less therefore.

You aren’t infinite.

In giving yourself to God, you are given the capacity to love more fully in the right ways and the right expressions. God is Love, but he will not play accomplice to anyone stealing from his daughter, or his son, or usurping their place in the heart of their mate.

You’d deprive your mate of her solitary place in your heart by making her share it. You’d deprive her of the knowledge that she is the only desire of your heart for those specific needs, and those specific expressions of love.


At the end of the day, if this is an exercise in trying to justify multiple sex partners, you can’t have your cake and eat it too; and I’m not fond of your idea. If I were a father, I’d not be inclined to let you date my daughter, knowing you are already mistreating her in your intent.


#24

1 Corinthians 7:8-9 (NASB) 8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. 9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Luke, there was obviously a general understanding among the believers that sex was reserved for marriage. If it was not, then why would Paul have recommended for the unmarried to marry if they lack self-control and burn with passion? A lack of self-control is viewed by Paul as a negative thing here; what could he have been referring to other than a lack of self-control concerning sex?

All sin is slavery, especially sexual sin. At 20, I’m in the thick of things when it comes to hormones as well, and I can tell you from experience that there is much more joy and freedom to be found in submitting to God’s plan in these matters and seeking His face than in giving in to our flesh :slight_smile:


#25

Well, I’m not sure about Luke, but the responses from the men here have certainly blessed me! And I take it back about not seeking opinions online. You guys rock!

What they said, Luke. You are hearing so much wisdom and depth here. If you ask God, I believe He will confirm this.


#26

Just because you wouldn’t give eachother permission to have sex with someone else doesn’t mean that’s the case for everyone. I know that if I had a wife, I wouldn’t mind sharing her sexually as long as she let me have sex with others as well.
As for polyamory, the LibChrist website even says that polyamory isn’t for everybody. Obviously it’s not for you. And honestly, I don’t think it’s for me either. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid choice for people who want to love more people.
Though I do want to ask you this: If, God forbid, your wife died, would you ever love another woman? If no, then wow. Why? If yes, then would that really be that much different then if she was alive?

“Flee sexual immorality”: Who says that what I’m describing is what Paul meant by ‘sexual immorality’?
“If a man looks on a woman with lust in his heart, he commits adultery”: libchrist.com/bible/lust.html
“The marriage bed is holy”: What does the marriage bed being holy have to do with polyamory/open marriage?


#27

My father practiced “open marriage”. Their marriage resembled what you posted from that website where they believe the man has permission from God to have sex at will but its a sin for the woman. Mom wouldn’t do it. It was a sin for her. But dad committed adultery, actually had other women in sleeping in their bed when my mom was out of town. When I developed, he sexualized me too.

Dad has been married 4 times, and divorced. Now he is old and alone. I’ve seen him about half dozen times in the past 35 years. His life has been a living hell. It’s really sad. :frowning:

As my mother used to say, “You made your own bed and now you have to lie in it”. I said a prayer for you Luke. This is really a much bigger decision than you think.


#28

That’s your choice. It will lead to banality, boredom, self-disgust and a loss of respect for others. Something sacred will die in your soul. I wouldn’t take that road for a million dollars.

Human sexuality should be cloaked in mystery and wonder. It should be the subject of poetry and song, music and art. It should be a secret garden known only to the lover and his beloved. But the modern mind reduces this private glory to the public scratching of a pubic itch. It is beneath contempt. It is a blasphemy that defaces the image of God. Christ, who is our true, loving and faithful spouse, is crucified by our unfaithfulness.

Thank God for that.

They want to love more people? Then let them serve at a leprosy hospital in India.

Not even God can love a corspe. Nor can you betray one.

If my wife died, would I love another woman? I hope I’d love many women: my mother, my sisters, my daughters-in-law, my grand-daughters, my female friends. I’d also love my dog and my tractor. But would I re-marry and love another woman as wife? Would I rekindle the sexual fires? I doubt it. I’m far too cantankerous. I suspect I’d become a Franciscan.

Almost every person who’s ever lived would condemn your proposal as sexually immoral. All but the most decadent, and these are often found in powerful cultures that are about to collapse under the weight of their own corruption. (If you can’t be faithful to your wife, why should the government be faithful to you?)


#29

Wow, great responses from everyone here!

Luke, I’ll have some thoughts for you too, after I’ve had a chance to take a look at your links. So far I’m agreeing with what’s been said … especially the idea that you’re playing with something far more powerful and sacred than you realize.

A thought to consider. If you decide to have casual sex with someone you admire physically, and then she tells you she’s pregnant, what would your reaction be? What would your sense of responsibility toward her be?

Sonia


#30

As I said before the website believes that back in the OT times, it was ok culturally for the man to have sex but not the woman. Nowadays it is sinful for both men and women to cheat, but it is not sinful for both men and women to have sex with others as long as they have permission. You continue to misunderstand and misrepresent what the site is saying.


#31

I would think, “Crap. Well, I gotta help take care of the baby in any way possible, if she doesn’t put the baby up for adoption, which I would prefer and suggest she does. If she doesn’t want to, then I’ll help take care of the baby.”


#32

That’s what you think, yet I haven’t seen any scriptural or logical evidence as to why that’s the case.

Again, where is the scriptural evidence that shows it is ‘blasphemy that defaces the image of God’?

I doubt people in OT times, with their multiple wives and concubines call it immoral. I doubt most people today, at least in the US and Europe, would call it immoral. And finally, I doubt Jesus would call it immoral. You know what Jesus defined as sin?
Not loving God with all your heart, and not loving your neighbor as yourself. So if you can show logically and scripturally that that does either of those, then you have an argument.


#33

That’s cheating. Mutual cheating is still cheating.

To be quite honest I don’t feel you’ll actually understand any of what we’re saying until you’ve matured, and have actually had a genuine relationship with the opposite sex.


#34

The name mutual cheating assumes there is no permission, so it obviously is cheating. It’s not cheating if you have each other’s permission to have sex with others.


#35

It is cheating, because it is the complete usurpation of the whole foundation of a marriage covenant. The solitary place of a mate in another mate’s heart.

You permission or not, make your mate share her place with others. To be quite honest, if you do this thing, you do not love your mate, because you have had the desire (which drives your actions) to have more than one mate, not a desire you fight, but a desire you embrace to the acting it out.

Sex isn’t just physical, it is spiritual as well; permission or not, it is not healthy for you, your mate, your family, and especially not your marriage to have such an open “marriage” as all that. It is loveless, putting an orgasm over the actual bonding of a man and his wife. It is a misplacement of priorities.

It IS obviously cheating, because you are cheating yourself, and cheating your wife, putting a physical response and rush of hormones over your own beloved.


#36

I understand your argument, though I disagree with it strongly. I’m going to need some scriptural proof for what you are saying here before we can go further.


#37

I would also add!

That if your interest in a girl is to have someone who is fond of having open sex relationships, I can tell you already; you’re not going to get a quality girl, and you won’t have a quality relationship.

You’ll get a whore, and that’s exactly what you do not want for a wife.

Good girls don’t have open sex relationships like that, and good girls find it absolutely repugnant, and good girls will reject you left and right the very moment you even mention the idea. And good girls…will cut your nuts off, if you even dared to cheat on them that way, if they don’t “give you permission” that is.

In other words, if you’re looking for a quality relationship, you won’t find it with the idea you have in mind. You’ll get a slut, a cheater, someone whose going to run off on you and leave you with the kids and the bills, or else you’re going to get spiritually or physically castrated; metaphorically, or even indeed literally.

Your self esteem will plummet, your sense of worth will be shot, and you’ll find that she has far less sex with you than she does with her other lovers. You’ll be a joke…you’ll be compared…you’ll be the lesser male…

You’ll be nothing to her. And your relationship will end, again and again, so long as you hold this view of yours in mind for your desires. Or if not that, you’ll be a man-whore yourself, and nigh useless for the Kingdom of God. People aren’t fond of ministers and theologians of the sort who seem engrossed in what they will consider highest sexual immorality.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/adultery

Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.”


Gen_2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Exo_20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Lev_20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Deu_5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Mat_5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Eph_5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti_3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.


You can’t be in a “marriage relationship” and even think about having sex with someone else without committing adultery, a sin. You cannot have sex outside of marriage, even voluntary (having permission) without committing adultery.

At the end of the day, it is nothing but adultery.


#38

Not necessarily. go here: forums.delphiforums.com/libchrist/start
These are the forums for LibChrist. If you dig a bit, you’ll find stories of people who have made this sort of thing work. Now, they may be the exception rather than the rule, but it does show that it does in fact work. (Note: as you’ll probably notice, I did in fact go to these forums to seek advice on this debate. They are a lot more knowledgeable than me over there about this.)
Also, just because a ‘good’ girl is ‘good’ doesn’t mean she doesn’t like sex and wouldn’t be interested in trying an open relationship. In reality, I would think somewhere from 33-67% of girls would be interested in at least trying that, though that’s just an educated guess (forums.delphiforums.com/libchris … msg=2310.1). And I highly doubt that 33-67% of girls are whores.

Have you ever though that God’s definition might not be exactly the same as the dictionary definition?

Gen 2:24 - I don’t particularly see how that would ban having sex with others.

Exo 20:14 - I don’t believe that it’s adultery with permission (in God’s eyes).

Lev 20:10 - I believe that is a reference to cheating (i.e. no permission).

Deu 5:18 - Same as Exo 20:14.

Mat 5:27 - Same as Exo 20:14.

Mat 5:28 - libchrist.com/bible/lust.html (Please actually read it)

Eph 5:33 - What does that have to do with having sex with other people.

1 Ti 3:2, 1 Ti 3:12, Tit 1:6 - Reasonably good argument against polyamory, not so much against having sex with other people.


#39

I’d bluntly say they are.

I’d say they’re pretty darn close. And from what Christ has to say about it, probably a lot deeper than the dictionary gave.

Note the word “wife” not “wives”

It is always adultery, permission or not.

Permission doesn’t negate the cheating. It just makes it cheating with permission.

I know what lust is. And in all honesty, I think I know what it is far bit more than you do having gone through Hell and back to get rid of massive chunks of it out of my life. From personal experience, from Godly experience; I know what lust is.

When you want to have sex with someone who isn’t your wife. You are lusting, you are coveting that which isn’t yours. She isn’t your wife, she isn’t yours.

Have one wife. Don’t screw around with others, don’t commit adultery.

Sex outside of marriage, permission or not, is adultery.


#40

Here’s a passage dealing with voluntary sex between adults.

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”

If you wish to live by OT ethics, I wish you luck. Only make sure you’re consistent. (Stone the Sabbath breakers, and such.) Otherwise, I might suspect you’re cherry-picking only the bits that suit.

God was dealing with a brutal people in a brutal age. In those times of ignorance, he overlooked many a sin. But now the light has come. What do I see? Christ is faithful to his Bride, the Church. He does not give the Church permission to have sordid liaisons with other gods. He would rather die. He did die on order to win our faithful love.

Christ is my light. He is faithful to his Bride. I also will be faithful to mine. As I’ve said before, adultery is blasphemy because it defaces the image of God amongst men. Here is the pattern. One Christ, one Church. One husband, one wife. Faithful, loving marriage bears testimony to this fundamental truth. It is an earthly glory that reveals the glory of God. This is why our enemies attack it with such unrelenting malice. Don’t join them.