Lefien: After looking back on our debate i think that i havent quite made clear what i meant by sex outside marriage. i meant more like threesomes and swinging and such, not randomly sleeping around with others. while randomly sleeping around with others while being marred isnt sinful imo, i still see how it breeds jealousy, which is why that isnt part of my ideal nonmonogamous relationship. swinging and threesomes on the other hand, would be.
i’ll respond to yours and alan’s posts tomorrow, but right now i need to go asleep.
i grew up in north america, Canada to be more specific. in north america, a real idol has been made of virginity and sex in general.
i’m not saying that it’s thus right to go all out and get as much as possible, because that’s the other extreme, but i think putting all this emphasis on (forbidding) sex makes it seem more exciting and ends up making you want it more.
i think some have realised this and tried to undo the damage by saying how “precious” it is, and that they’re really “valuing it” as highly as they “should”.
i’m not going to comment on that as i feel it’s up to each individual to learn the value of a thing.
despite all this, sex should have some value. i think that the culture the west lives in, that promotes binge drinking and random sex with strangers is dangerous and unhealthy. i think it causes broken hearts, the spread of disease, and unwanted pregnancies.
i’m really unsure about the Biblical view on this issue. while i’d like to be convinced it’s ok by Scripture, for responsible consensual sex outside marriage, i’m not sure, honestly that i am.
my personal feeling about it being blasphemy or idolatry… well i feel that everything we do can be viewed in these ways, if not done in love, for God’s glory. i feel any “falling short” is a similar blasphemy, regardless of the type of relationship that is hurt or ruined. i don’t personally feel in my life that i would elevate sex outside of marriage above other sins on that basis alone.
Luke…don’t have sex til you’re ready. i’m pretty sure you’re not yet…14 is way too young. there are alot of complexities, and if one is to venture into that world, one should have a bit of age and perspective. that goes for both partners.
i think alot of the damage done by sex is done by people who don’t have a clue about the repercussions, or have high expectations (ie the boy that wants to get some action and the girl that thinks it’s LOVE, which is in clear contrast to two older people that are just mutually attracted and aware of risks).
“I wonder if your daddy role modelled unfaithfulness and abandonment?”
Yes he did. He cheated on my mom (due to alcohol problems), and now they’re getting divorced. Now, what he did, he did without permission. That is always wrong, and really, the thought of it makes me feel quite sick.
Yes, absolutely anything yuo do could become a sin if you put it before God. Heck, going to the bathroom could probably be considered a sin if you put it before God (a bit of an extreme example, I know).
I probably am too young, but I do know how to use protection, and I do know not to sleep with a girl whos been with a ton of guys, because she prbably has stds. But, you know, I’ve never had a girlfriend, so I probably won’t have to worry about this for a while.
Christ talked about the law of love. How does having sex with others with permission violate the law of love?
Doesn’t mean you can’t get more wives later.
That article is not attempting to put a new definition to lust, rather it is showing that lust is somewhat of a bad translation, as well as showing that ‘lust’ was used to describe a variety of non-sexual things that weren’t wrong whatsoever. But if you’re not going to follow the link, I’ll post it here: LUST Or Covet
Math 5:27-28: An interpretation of this passage is that if you look at the Greek verb (lust more properly translated covet or desire), is the same word used in the Septuagint’s translation of the 10th Commandment (not covet). In this case, Matthew has Jesus saying that covetousness, the desire to deprive another of his property, is the essence of adultery. Jesus was then reaffirming a quite traditional understanding of what is wrong with adultery.
The Greek word here is, of course, epithumia, which also means “covet” and is the word used by the translators of the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew, chamad, in Ex. 21:17 “Thou shalt not COVET .” It is not coincidence, by the way, that “neighbor’s wife” is included with the other property listed in this text.
In this case, Jesus was asserting that adultery does not consist primarily of sexual union of two people, at least one of which is married, but it consists rather in the intention, accomplished or not, to take what belongs to another. The purpose of the verse is to show no one is free of sin, but the nature of sin lies in impurity of the heart (taking from another man his wife) rather than the physical act itself. This is different from consensual nonmonogamy. Its like the Rabbi said at the swing club, “I don’t want to own your wife, just borrow her!” Now, lets look at how porneia is used here,
The natural desire for sexual variety or the enjoyment of looking at a beautiful body has absolutely nothing to do with “lust” as most assume it to mean. Lust is only wrong if it is the selfish desire to take something from another. Lust is wrong if it is about greed and self satisfaction at the expense of another. But there is nothing whatsoever wrong with mutually desired loving intimacy and enjoying sexual variety or pornography for that matter.
In biblical times man could have as many wives and concubines (breeders) as they wished once the man was age 12 and the women age 13, and adultery was only a sin for a married women. It was never a sin for a married man as long as the other women was not married (owned by another man). There was nothing wrong with “common” prostitutes which are often mentioned with no negative inference. Only the idolatry of the Temple prostitutes who were via sex worshipping the fertility gods was a sin, not prostitutes or their customers.
Biblically lust was not nearly such a bad word as those that use it against sexuality seem to think. In the original Greek the word translated “lust” was used several other times for things NOT considered wrong: Jesus “lusted” to be with his disciples. The word is the same as that some use to make lust to be a sin. Did Jesus sin? No, but He lusted. Strong desire for something is not a sin.
Another interpretation of the famous “lust” passage is that Jesus was taking the law in which the scribes and Pharisees believed that they were so authoritative on and pressing that law (using adultery as an example) to its ultimate conclusion, the intent of the heart.
Jesus was not interested in making a new law for us to follow. After all, he came to fulfill the law in himself through atonement, to bring back to God those of us who will come. The ONLY commandment he gave was LOVE, love of God with all that is within us and love of others as we should love ourselves.
Jesus was pressing the law to its ultimate conclusion to show how damning impossible a task its proposed adherents set for themselves in their inherent inability to follow the law. Other NT verses come right out and say that the law condemns, and that salvation is to be found elsewhere. The law does not save. Jesus’ graphic illustration of sin by saying that the lustful should first cut out their eyes to enter heaven is not meant literally because the heart is the real core. Jesus is being sarcastic with the dogged enemies of the truth that were the Pharisees and Sadducees who sought to keep their status quo intact.
That verse in no way suggests that you can’t have sex with others if you have permission.
In my brief look at the OP, I noticed something quickly and that is a misunderstanding of the bride-price in the ancient near-east. The young man would pay or give something of value to the girl’s father approximately equal to 1 year’s wages based on their socio-economic status. This exchange established the marriage covenant and the couple was married. The young man would them prepare a house or room in the family dwelling for them to live in. And when he was ready he’d come get his bride. When he came to get the bride, the father would take the bride-price, add it to his daughter’s family inheritance, possibly an even larger sum, and the total, bride-price + family-inheritance, became the Dowry. The Dowry helped to form the foundation for the new family’s financial provision and sustanance. However, the Dowry technically and legally actually belonged to the wife. If the man divorced her for no valid reason then he had to pay her the value of the full dowry, possibly 5-10 years salary. It was a system designed to protect the woman who was the physically weaker and financially and even socially more dependant on others.
Concerning premarital sex, I encourage my sons to act in love, not in lust. Love brings life, but lust brings death. Love considers what’s best for the other person and puts that above one’s own, even the other’s own desires. Pre-marital sex only meets the lust of the flesh and is not an act of love, lust of the flesh yes, emotional attachment yes, but real love no.
Also, keep in mind that God did establish marriage in the Garden. It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Eve and John and Lisa and Sammy and Paula… Stable, loving, lasting marriages are hard enough without all the baggage from other previous relationships. And believe you me, sex outside of marriage, creates a lot of baggage - emotionally, psychologically, even physically.
I don’t believe God freaks out if someone has premarital sex, but I do believe that He’s revealed enough in His Word, by His Spirit, and through His Body (the church) to indicate that sex outside of marriage is not healthy for the individuals, their families, or society as a whole; and thus should be avoided. Like Paul said, it’s better to marry than to burn with passion.
I fail to see how any of those verses mean that you can’t have sex with others if you have permission. Please highlight the parts you think suggests that.
I never said I wanted to live by OT ethics. I merely said that to illustrate a point, because you said that almost no one would find my sexual ideas moral, so I pointed out that they would in OT times.
That’s a pretty good argument against polyamory. Not so much against having outside sex withpermission.
interesting. it doesn’t change the fact that women were treated as property. They were just very valuable and very important property. Oh, and concubines, by the way were definitely property to men back then, because they didn’t have a dowry.
I have two problems with that. 1. I don’t agree that all per-marital sex is purely lust, a 2. I don’t agree that lust is necessarily a bad thing (libchrist.com/bible/lust.html), unless you put it before God.
Luke, what your daddy did is wrong on so many levels. Believe me, I understand. My dad was an alcoholic and unfaithful too. It deeply imprints one’s life with a lot of lies and baggage.
But you have a big advantage. You appear to have a desire to follow God. God will be your Father if you will let Him. Speaking of “permission”, I pray you will give God permission to Father you. (IMO He is trying to do that for you- in part- through the men on this thread who have spoken to you from their hearts.) Here’s a letter from your heavenly Father: Dear Luke…
You appear to have some Christian background. Do you attend church? Is your mom a Christian?
Seems to me that it would be helpful for you to have some real life emotional support to help you navigate the distress of “losing” your father to divorce, concurrent with the stormy hormonal ride of adolescence. I’m a mom and TBH, if my son was being mentored by these libchrist fellows, I would be concerned. I’d want him to talk and pray through this with me, and/or if that was too awkward, I’d want to find someone from church or a good christian counselor. Perhaps even your dad could give you some feedback on this sexual license theology you have embraced. My dad expressed regrets to me for some things which happened in my childhood and it helped to hear him say that some of his choices were wrong and that he hoped for me to have a better life than him.
The sin is in the very desire itself. To be unfaithful to your one mate in desiring to have more than her, and her unfaithfulness to you in desiring to have more. It is selfishness.
“You are not enough to meet my needs, I must have other lovers, I must have my orgasms! You simply are not meet to satisfy me.”
If you truly loved your wife, you wouldn’t even think about polygamy.
I have the dictionary, moral culture, the church, church tradition, sound Biblical understanding, and about three other vocal members posting (all of whom are much older and wiser than even myself) in this thread who agree with me. Not only that, I have the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the witness of my own testimony and personal experience, as well as that of my own family and parents, and upbringing. And above all that I know the intent in God’s moral judgements that adultery is stepping outside of the marriage for sexual intercourse with another person who isn’t your spouse. Having sex with someone who isn’t your spouse is adultery, permission or not; because the root of it is that you are stepping outside of the marriage - the union between you and your wife - to have sex with someone who is not your spouse.
Permission to do so, does not negate the sin. All it does, at best, is make your spouse an accomplice to your sinful action.
I’m pretty darn sure I’ve proven it.
You’d be far more hard pressed to prove that adultery isn’t adultery if you ‘have permission’. And I’d add this; a marriage is between you, your wife, and God. God most of all, and I highly doubt he’s given you direct permission to do as you desire to do. And I highly doubt he ever will.
If he doesn’t explicitly give you permission by his own mouth, then you do not have permission.
A threesome, and swinging, fall under the same exact category as the things I’ve debated.
In your heart you’ve desired to have another apart from your wife. That is adultery.
That the word “lust” in the context of what Jesus is talking about is quite clear, and viable for a definition. Covet, in such a case, is no different from lust in this context.
Sexual Lust, is obviously the point of the text.
And I’d applicable say this; thou shalt not covet one who is not thy wife. Thou shalt not covet an orgasm over the wife of thy youth. Thou shalt not covet the daughters of men who are not thine wife. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors daughter. Thou shalt not covet the daughter of thy God to sleep with her for pleasure’s sake, for the flesh’s sake.
Thou shalt not treat the daughters of God as “thy left or right hand”.
Thou shalt not treat the daughters of God as things to be traded, borrowed, or used for thy orgasm.
In having sex with another man’s wife - you do take her away from him, because sexual expression towards her is his place, and his place alone. Just as for him, it is her place, and her place alone.
You usurp his place, you thieve from him by putting yourself in his place as a surogate lover where you do not belong, and where you do not have permission from God to interfere.
Greed, and self satisfiaction at the expense of another? Kind of like…what you’re desiring to do?
“Give me an orgasm, let me borrow your wife. Let me borrow your daughter.”
The selfish desire for pleasure, at the expense of your marriage, of your wife, of your neighbor, of your neighbor’s wife, or of your neighbor’s daughter; and especially at the expense of God who gave you a wife to enjoy, not to be thankless and selfishly require more for your own physical thrill.
As for pornography; don’t even get me started on that. Those girls are being used, pornography is one of the most destructive industries, and the most degrading to woman kind ever was built by man.
Pornography is degrading, it objectifies women, in much the same way your ideas of “borrow” objectify women, and objectify yourself. Which are “at the expense” of the truth, and at the expense of God who did not make you to be a sex toy, and did not make his daughters to be a sex toy.
It was evil then, and it is evil now.
It was adultery for David to steal Bathsheba. And the Bible has plenty to say about people whoring themselves being a sin.
In my experience with the living God, sexual lust is extremely vile.
And so Truth presented truth. It is a matter of the heart, and the actions come forth with it.
Christ died to purify you, not to give you license to do what ever you so please, and abuse Grace, God, and his daughters.
He also had a great deal to say about the woman caught in adultery.
“Go and sin no more”
He did not neglect to call it a sin.
It does, because adultery is adultery, permission or not.
I’d also suggest not taking all of your Biblical interpretation and world-view foundations from a site that seems to be quite dedicated to sexual hedonism, and “biblical justification” for what is quite monstrous an idea.
I’d also suggest quite affirmatively; “if you don’t love someone, don’t have sex with them.” If you do, you’re doing nothing short of using them for an organic sex toy. And High Heaven as my witness, that is not something you want to do to someone’s daughter, namely one of God’s daughters.
My reaction to that quote from that website was that the woman was being treated as a thing, a possession, to be “traded, borrowed, and used” as you put it. And I had my suspicions from the beginning of the conversation and almost asked if Luke is using pornography because this dehumanizing attitude toward women, as well as lust- which can never be satisfied- goes right along with porn use.
Luke, as I read your first post (and I’ve more or less read all the ensuing posts, as well), a couple things came to my mind:
I’m impressed by your inquisitiveness and desire to know (and act!) according to the truth. Keep that up, and keep framing it in the light of the truth revealed by the Bible and the living Spirit of Christ. You actually remind me a little bit of myself at that age; in fact, I’m going to speak to you as if to one of my younger brothers–I hope you don’t mind. Please forgive me in advance for anything offensive I may say; I certainly don’t mean to attack you personally, and all I say comes from a brother-in-Christ attitude towards you.
Let’s step back and look at the big picture here. What we are discussing is a subset of the new life that God gives us through Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit. We’re not talking about a list of do’s and don’ts and how close can we get before we start sinning. That’s for religious systems and ascetic disciplines. We are not interested in that; we are interested in expressing the aionios life that Jesus died to give us. Our desire is to become all in all with God, totally submitted and in love with Jesus as Jesus is to the Father.
So let’s not have any more “what does the Bible allow?” talk, okay? If you are bound and determined to live a particular way, YOU WILL find Biblical justification for it. That’s not an issue. The Bible can support ANY viewpoint (yes, even atheism!), so it’s not so much an issue of “what does the Bible allow?” Rather, what does the Bible present as God’s ideal, and what are the results of living against his ideal?
If the only thing holding you back from premarital sex is “the Bible says not to do it,” then that tells me you haven’t considered the implications of the following:
a. In the beginning, God made one man and one woman. This is his perfect design. Anything else by definition is sin, and because it’s sin, it WILL lead to experiencing God’s wrath in your life. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but my own brushes with this in my history have made me eternally grateful that by God’s grace I was able, as a 31-year-old virgin, to marry a godly virgin woman. And guess what? Even then, there are STILL sex-related issues to work through–even though we were virgins when we married! There are always prices to be paid for not attaining to God’s ideal, and I shudder to think how much worse off I’d be now if I had had your philosophy when I was 19, and if I’d found some “Christian” young ladies who did, too. Humans are designed by God to have one marriage relationship with one opposite-sex partner in which wild self-abandoning, other-serving hot sex is experienced. That’s it. One man, one woman. Which leads to,
b. There is only One Bridegroom, and there is only one bride. Multiple sexual partners, “consenting” or not, is a form of idolatry. It’s intentionally disconnecting the sexual part of the marriage paradigm from what it represents: intimacy with our Lord. I wish I had a nicer word for it, but it’s idolatry.
c. What kind of person will you become as a result of this thinking? Fathers like me would never let you near their daughters of courting age. Just something to think about. There’s reasons fathers have shotguns.
I know this may frustrate you (it did me when older people told me this when I was younger), but there is real wisdom is listening to what older people have to advise you on. You WILL reap the fruit of the seed you sow: either of sin leading to death, or obedience leading to righteousness. The question is, how long do you want to spend getting back on track with God’s best for your life? You go the way you’re heading now, and it will be a very long tortuous arduous road filled with pain and regret. No, I can’t “prove” that to you (as if there were actually some evidence that’d make you change your mind right now ), but I guarantee 20 years from now you will thank God every day for any wise choices you made at this point in your life, but at the same time you’ll be going through a painful healing process for every foolish choice you made in your teens.
So go ahead and do whatever is in your heart to do, if you honestly think you’re loving God and others with every ounce of your being by doing it. Seriously, do it. I’m not kidding. I don’t want you to think that you’re missing out on life by following God–you have to go where you think the source of life is. Some people have to learn the hard way–the prodigal only returned to the father after living with the pigs. And the elder brother stayed with the father the whole time and never learned! I’m not accusing you of being a prodigal, because we all are in some area of our lives. God will bring you to the end of your rope one way or the other, and you’ll eventually be completely reconciled to him, as will we all.
Blessings to you, brother. Again, I apologize for anything offensive, but I respect you as a brother enough that I don’t want to pull any punches.
As my friend NealF mentioned, the bible can be twisted and bent to justify just about anything we want… and even as Paul himself said, “all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial”. Be careful trying to justify any position using scripture - instead of taking a position and then trying to justify it, seek first the Truth that is found in scripture.
There is much wisdom in what has been said in the cautions of others here already. I want to offer one more voice and perspective.
Sex is meant to be the culminating act of truly self-sacrificing love. I have a very hard time believing that anyone could be completely selfless in having sex with multiple partners. What would your motivation be in having sex with others? Would it not be a selfish motivation?
I find it hard to believe that a situation could exist, without delusion, where it would be selfless to have sex with someone outside of a premeditated, life-long commitment to them.
Sex should only ever be about giving, never about taking. That’s what selfless means. Even inside of a life-long, committed, monogamous relationship, if sex becomes a selfish pursuit for one or both partners, it will work to destroy that relationship. This is a hard truth that I’m sure would be confirmed by many here on this forum.
God is love. Love is selfless - self-sacrificing. I challenge you to this and this alone - live in such a way where you sacrifice all of your own desires on the alter of what is best for those around you. To do this is to live in Christ-likeness.
In our own strength, this is impossible - In the first Adam, we are born as selfish creatures. When we are born of the second Adam, Christ, we find the power to lay aside our lives for those around us - to lay aside our desires and pursue what is best for our neighbor. We must pursue what is best for our sisters in Christ - it would be nothing less than selfish to have sex with them when we are not committed to standing beside them, giving ourselves up for them, and caring for their every need until the end of our earthly lives. We must give our life to our bride - including our every desire.
I can tell from your previous posts that you do not understand why this is the case. I will try to offer my perspective on why this is true.
Donald Miller wrote in Searching For God Knows What, “I have sometimes wondered if the greatest desire of man is to be known and loved anyway.” I believe this is a profound truth.
When you do become sexually active, you will realize that sex is the most intimate act two people can partake in. To partake in this with your partner is to know them in a way that no one else can. To give yourself to someone sexually is to be known by them in a way that no one else knows you. If that relationship comes to a close, it is the same as saying, “well, I’ve known you very intimately for a bit, and to be honest, I don’t care to know you anymore.” This is devastating to the soul.
As you pointed out in one of your earlier posts, a person can be hurt by a breakup regardless of whether or not the couple was sexually active. Yes, this is true. However, a couple can be no more intimate than to have sex with one another. The more intimate the relationship, the more pain is caused by the breakup. The more sexually active, the more devastating.
Unless you marry your first love, you will carry the pain of past breakups into your marriage. The more you were known, and forsaken, the bigger and more numerous your scars and self-defense mechanisms will be.
Have you ever known an animal that has been abused - cowering in the corner unable to let you pet it? The dog that bites the hand that feeds it does so because it cannot trust anything outside of itself. These are the scars of being used for someone else’s gain - permission or not, these are the scars you will cause your partner if you have sex with her and then forsake her for another. You and she both will find it difficult to truly open yourselves to another for fear of being hurt.
Because of past infidelities, many live calloused lives, not allowing themselves to be fully known for fear they may be rejected “just like last time”.
To be fully known by your lover, and fully loved anyway is one of the most profound and beautiful things we can experience in this life.
Regarding “permission”. Just because your partner is ignorant of the pain it will cause to “give you permission” doesn’t mean that the pain will not occur. If I ask my two year old if I can hit him in the head with a hammer, he might actually say “yes”. Would that mean it’s okay for me to hit him? God forbid! That’s ludicrous. Partners who allow each other to “sleep around” are either ignorant, or completely calloused. If ignorant, then both are in for a lot of pain. If calloused, then I doubt the relationship is healthy and fulfilling in the first place - and sleeping around will most certainly increase the callousness… both will be “uncomfortably numb”.
The more cautious and truly self-less you are in your relationships the better. When the relationship ends, you will have less scars and hurt to carry into the next relationship - and you will cause less scars in the one with whom you break up with.
This is big Luke - don’t be fooled by the fools of this world. Humble yourself before the Lord and let Him guide your heart. I speak to myself as much as you when I say this. Lust is not foreign to me, it is a battle - but it is one that is worth fighting with every ounce of our strength. It is a battle, that by the power of Christ, we can have complete victory over.
I am profoundly sorry for the infidelity and selfishness of your earthly father. I hope and pray that you will have a fresh revelation of the unyielding love and faithfulness of your perfect heavenly Father.
Sex should be about giving and taking. I mean, if you’re giving something, somobody has got to take it, right? And that’s the case for both sex with someone you love, and for sex with someone you don’t, IMO.
In all honesty, which unfortunately must be a blunt honesty;
If it were my future daughter, neither you or those 75% would come near her.
Quite frankly I’d have her wait for a prince worthy of her. You, currently, are not. I say this in the nicest way possible, like NealF seeing you a brother and giving tough-love advice. With your current beliefs towards women and sex? You simply don’t pass the test by a long shot.
If I may speak for NealF - there’s no “you’d rather have me date your daughter than” to it. Its a very black and white choice.
You’re good enough, or you aren’t.
I’d also be inclined to suggest actually taking sexual advice from people who’ve already had it. Namely, and quite assumedly, AaronK, Gem, and NealF.
Lefien: Wow. You really still don’t get it. You keep saying the same things over and over again. yet you have shown no evidence, except for a dictionary definition that '“shows” that it’s still adultery even with permission. Yet, you do agree that what matters is what’s in your heart. And if you have permission, then hurting you spouse is not what is in your heart. Because your spouse is fine with it. I know you don’t agree with that, and fine. Live the way you want to live. I’m not going to stop you. I do still want to ask you a couple of things though.
Now, what if, in this sex with others situation, I wasn’t married to my partner, but was just in a loving, commited relationship? Remember what I said earlier, how most people probably should marry?
Can you explain this: 2 Sam 12:8
"I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. "
So if God is the same yesterday today and forever how could God give as a blessing something that is “sinful”? Also, at other times, God gave people (Solomon) concubines as gifts and blessings. Concubines weren’t married to the man they lived with, but still had sex with him.
Now, I understand that God overlooked sinful tradition in Israel in that time, but why would God give as a blessing something that is sinful?