The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Pre-marital sex


#61

I’d also contend that I’m one of the nicest, sweetest, most polite guys you’d ever meet, and if you ever actually met me (and didn’t know it was me from these forums), you’d probably love for your daughter to date me. Until you found out about my sexual ideas of course.

The people over at the LibChrist forums have had sex. Just saying.


#62

*Lefein

Look, I can’t prove that colour exists to a blind man, no matter how much I throw paint at his face. If you’re not willing to take Truth as evidence, that is your issue.

That you insist on justifying having sex outside of marriage in any way possible, is your error.

All I can say is; “Go forth and do it, ruin your life if you please.”

Honestly if you have permission, I question the faithfulness of your mate just as much as I question your faithfulness to her.

Marriage is a loving committed relationship. License and paper contracts don’t make a marriage any more than golden rings.

If you’re in a loving, committed relationship - you won’t have this attitude in mind that you currently have. I guarantee it.

I think first of all, it is interesting given the context that Nathan the Prophet is addressing David about this right after David had sex with Bathsheba and had Uriah murdered after he failed to play accomplice to covering up a pregnancy.

Also; Saul was his master, and Saul is dead, and was dead when David was crowned king and given Israel and Judah - and the rest.

God didn’t give Solomon those concubines, he went out and took them. And those very same women actually cost him dearly leading him into idol worship near the end of his life.

Because he obviously didn’t give Solomon concubines, and even if polygamy isn’t a sin; it is thoroughly unwise.

Not to mention illegal in the United States. If you intend on having more than one wife, good luck.


At the end of the day, none of us here are going to justify the abuse of sex, and absolutely none of us are going to justify the abuse of women - “permission” or not.

I, with absolute seriousness, tell you that you would most certainly not, and I would most certainly not think so. You underestimate my standards for what sort of boy will be allowed to date my hypothetical daughter.

You underestimate me, and you overestimate yourself. As this hypothetical daughter’s father…I highly suggest you not do that…Namely in that it would get you nowhere, really fast.

And they’re doing it wrong too.


#63

Yeah, I’m pretty much done with this. I’m more than offended and I’m not going to budge from my position, and neither is anyone here who holds it; and neither are we going to sanction or agree or justify with you the thing you’re believing or thinking to do.

Pre-marital sex? Debatable. The rest of the stuff you’re talking about? Not a sin’s chance in God’s remedial Hell.

I’m out.


#64

libchrist.com/bible/DavdSolomon.html

Just an expansion on what I’ve already said.

And how is it ‘abuse’ of women? How? It makes absolutely 0 sense to call it abuse, IMO, when there is agreement from both sides. But obviously you don’t agree with that.

So you don’t think I’m a nice person? You don’t think me, a 14 year-old guy who holds open doors for his mom, as well as others, especially girls, a 14 year-old guy who does a ton of chores around the house because he’s an only child with a disabled mom and an absent father, and doesn’t even get an actual allowance for it, a 14 year-old guy who tries his best to be nice and polite to everyone he meets, me a 14 year-old guy who is very shy and isn’t one of those arrogant jerk ‘players’ that a lot of girls in high school tend to like, a a 14 year-old guy who, while he most definitely isn’t perfect, and most definitely makes mistakes, still tries to live a life that Jesus would live, is a nice person? And just because you think that Jesus wouldn’t agree with my sexual ethics, doesn’t make it so. Of course, just because I believe He would agree with my sexual ethics doesn’t make it so either. But anyway, my point is, you have judjed me without even meeting me. And that is something Jesus said to definitely not do. “Don’t judge, lest you be judged.”


#65

Not even the littlest tiny bit.

I’m told to make righteous judgements, and to judge rightly. That your sexual ethics are disgusting to me and that your view of women is horrendously vile; is enough for me to judge that you’re not even one hint of an iota good enough for any daughter I might have.

Judge not lest ye be judged - indeed, the context of that verse is not to judge a person’s destiny; I’m not condemning your soul. I’m judging you thoroughly unworthy for any one of my hypothetical daughters. Especially because of your sexual ethics, you’re a poor mate for them, and they would have superior men.

Unless you shaped up and changed your views dramatically; I’d not let you near enough to catch rumour of them.


#66

Anyway, I’m done here as well. It’s obvious I’m not going to budge either. But I do want to say one thing. Just because you wouldn’t want to have sex with another person when you already love someone (which is a completely valid decision), doesn’t mean it’s that way for everybody. That is a fallacy by anecdote. And I think the fact that plenty of swinging couples exist is testament to that.
I’d also like to add, that in my case, when I’m married (or in a committed relationship) sex outside of marriage/committed relationship would be pretty much limited to swinging, and having sex with others (with permission of course) when we’re apart and can’t have sex with each other.


#67

Did you not read what I said or do you just not believe it?


#68

I read what you said. And I stand by what I said.


#69

So despite all that, you still think I’m a horrible person?


#70

I never said you, specifically as a person, were horrible. I only said you aren’t nice, and I don’t consider you nice. And as far as if I had daughters go; an inferior mate not worthy of them, I think your heart in this matter (sex) is vile, or else driven so much by your hormones that your heart has been replaced with a set of genitalia.

I’m not going to limit myself to one view of you.

More or less, I’d not be willing to consider you “nice”, and certainly not “nice enough” for my hypothetical daughters, until you were far more mature in your views, and a staunch monogamist whom I feel would treat them as I’d expect them to be treated.

As a person however…I’m sure you’re respectable. But you are not at all material for a potential son in law. And to me, that’s what counts as far as this thread goes. The credentials you presented as proof that you are “nice” is not sufficient to meet the “nice” required to set foot in my future household with intent after one of my future daughters. If the scenario were fit and meet for this particular problem to have arisen that is.

You could be the beloved apostle John, and if you yet had those views, you’d still not be nice enough.


#71

Okay, now I’m just offended. I understand that I would not be son-in-law material, but I know that I’m more than just half-decent. A person’s sexual views are not a good way to judge their character, unless they go around raping people or something of that sort. I’m done here now. But at least I know I’m a nice person.


#72

Okay, now I’m just offended. I understand that I would not be son-in-law material, but I know that I’m more than just half-decent. A person’s sexual views are not a good way to judge their character, unless they go around raping people or something of that sort. I’m done here now. But at least I know I’m a nice person.

EDIT: I see you edited your post, so now I’m less offended.


#73

??? It posted another post instead of editing. What??


#74

I’d also like to add, that I am not telling you these things repeatedly because I hate you, or have some desire to see you wiped off the face of Creation.

It is only that I want to tell you the honest truth, so that hopefully you either change your views, or if not are at least informed enough about what reactions you will face from fathers and potential fathers such as myself.

And one of them just might take serious their threat, its a dangerous world. And shotguns aren’t hard to buy.

As for you being offended, yes I changed my post. But it was not entirely for your sake, I could care less if you were offended (so don’t press it…or I might change it back with extra). It was rather, because I don’t feel like being as harsh as I might ought; I just don’t like being “not nice” myself. I just wanted to be extra clear on this particular point.

And as far as sexual views and character go, from my experience - its an excellent way of judging someone’s character.


#75

Though, after some though I probably should apologise for being extra harsh quite on purpose in an effort to make my point as crystal clear as possible.

I apologise therefore, for the harshness.


#76

Thank you for your apology. I appreciate it. Though I am now done with this thread.


#77

Luke could move to the UK! shotguns are much harder to get here :smiley:

Luke, i am reading through the links, and seeing what it is that they are saying. some of it seems ok, but i need to dig deeper.
honestly, i’ve only just embraced UR, and i’m conscious of the fact that i am already treading on thin ice (according to my old way of thinking) in that regard (note: i’m not actually treading on thin ice, it just feels that way lol)…and while i personally have a fair bit of reason for wanting sexual liberty to be a true and good thing, i just want to be very careful where i tread for the time being. it’s important to try and reconcile your own conscience with the Scriptures. and while i definitely have Issues with puritan nonsense, i don’t want to potentially chuck the baby of Godly sexual purity out with the bathwater of cultural indoctrination. though it’s possible i already have…but so far i’m not trying to justify it.


#78

I’m still interested in hearing Luke’s interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 (as in the reply I posted on page 2 of this thread).


#79

Not being married yet, I don’t see how you could possibly say this for certain. Actually being in a situation often greatly changes how we view it.

While you may be technically correct on many points, the reality is that spiritually, marriage and becoming one flesh is a mystery of unity that reflects Christ and the Church. I don’t see how the line of thought you have put forth here remotely matches this image. The Christ-like life is not a matter of the letter of the law.

You speak from youth and inexperience as well as a logic which lacks wisdom, and there are a great many things that those perspectives overlook.
God in times past permitted many things that were not the best he had in mind for people. As Paul put it, “all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.”

Just some things to think about.


#80

I really want to believe this, but there is a passage in the Bible that makes me question it.

John 4

15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

Was Jesus against cohabitation? Was he judging that woman?

On the other hand, king David and Solomon had a lot of concubines. In the Song of Songs the couple seems no married.