The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Prince of the power of the air?

Theology Biblical Theology
#39

I have repeatedly said my logic is my own and all logic is based on the pre-suppositions of each view. I also said at least twice, “earthly, soulical, demonic, all three” quoting James 3. So I don’t read “spiritual” only as “other-wordly” and I was pretty clear about that- stating that earthly and spiritual principalities are “enmeshed”- my exact words. So now I am wondering if I am carrying on a discussion with someone who is not even reading what I am saying :slight_smile:

I think you are the only one who has said Paul “definitely” had one view in mind. I am just presenting the scriptures and how I read them. Readers can draw their own conclusions.

On the other hand,if you read “spiritual” and determine there are definitely no spiritual rulers or principalities, I think that may be a little restrictive.

#40

Eagle… instead of saying “I think…” why not just do a F3 word search of this blog and you’ll find it was YOU alone using “definitely” – your exact words.

But still you bifurcate the term (which as per your position is fine)… I’m just noting that there are other valid explanations to understanding “spiritual” that don’t require an “otherworldly” reading, as opposed to your direct presuppositional reflection saying such.

#41

Yes I agree, there are other valid explanations. We all believe what we believe is valid, so yes, I think my view is also valid. :slight_smile:

However, my view is not “presuppositional”. I have presented many verses for context. My view as I said before is that archas(rulers) and exousias(authorites) can refer to earthly and spiritual domains. In Eph in paricular however- as I read it,

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers(archas), against the powers(exousias), against the world forces(kosmokratos) of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness **in the heavenly places.
**

So in the context of the sentence, as well as the context of the epistle, in my view the archas and exousias Paul is speaking of are not flesh and blood, but rather they are** cosmic powers** and spirituals of evil in the heavenly realms…

In my view these are not governors and leaders who have flesh and blood and rule upon the earth among men, altho they work in and through them. To me this cannot really be easily portrayed as presuppositional or unreasonable. It is an interpretation with support from the context of scripture. That is not to say “it is the only correct view”, but imo it is a very reasonable consideration.

John 6:7 When Jesus called Peter the Rock, He spoke metaphorically. When he spoke to the 12 of Judas “and one of you is a devil”, in my view it is no different than saying to someone “You are a lion”. As the lion is representative of a courageous man, a devil is a fitting metaphor for the traitorous, conspiratorial, thieving, two faced Judas. Judas was behaving like a devil, and like the devil- father of lies, author of confusion, seducer and deceiver, etc. The fact that Jesus called Judas a devil in a metaphor doesnt mean there are no devils.

The 12, including Judas, knew the reality of demons, as they were regularly dealing with them, and watching the Lord deal with them.

The fact that Jesus called Judas a devil is witnessed by the same scripture that bears witness to Legion- a hive of spirits that possessed a madman who was whole and in his right mind after they were cast out into the pigs who promptly committed hogicide. John 6:7 is not a proof text against the existence of disembodied spirits which are represented in narrative all over the scriptures…

The reason Paul became so unpopular in Ephesians was because he cast a spirit of divination out of the prophetess of the temple of Diana. I gather she could not prophesy(see unknown things to tell people and impress them) anymore. The narrative says she had brought great riches to the temple by her prophesying…

The Holy Spirit works through us. The spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience is sometimes accompanied by demons.

I see what Paul did in Ephesus as an example of the the Lordship of Messiah overthrowing the kosmakratos and pneumatika tos ponerias in Ephesus, even as He had done, through Paul in Salamis(acts 13).

But Elymas the magician (for so his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, 10and said, “You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? 11“Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time.” And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul believed when he saw what had happened, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord.

From my point of view Paul was dealing with a man, but the man was dealing with the devil, enslaving the masses through powers, “earthly, psychological, demonic”. He was seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith because it would hinder his influence and wealth gathering, and I believe he used natural and psychological means to bamboozle people. I believe he probably had assistance “cosmic powers of this darkness and spirituals of evil in the heavenly realms” as well.

Presuppositions exist in everyone, including me. That is why we have the scriptures. You and I just read them very differently regarding this topic, obviously.

It will all come out in the wash :slight_smile:

#42

Not really so confusing if we regard the gospels and Acts as historical and not mere myth and hyperbole. If we “wrestle” against such, we do so as those before us, as it also says, “our weapons are not carnal/natural”. The word, the truth, prayer, praise, forgiveness, lovng our enemies, the gospel…

Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Some of our struggles are natural. Some of them are personal(struggling against our own disposition to the flesh and the carnal mind), some of are spiritual, and can involve conflict with spirits working in people or even directly. That doesnt mean there are demons around every corner or that anyone should focus on that, as Jesus said, “Marvel not that demons are subject to you. Marvel rather that your names are written in the book of life.”

One of the beauties of life in Christ and Christ in us is freedom from demonic oppression.

I have been in places where demonic activity was very real and direct. But only a few times in my many years in Christ. That is not weight in the balance for discussion sake, but it is my testimony. Certified true by me :laughing:

#43

**In no place have I even(or ever) suggested that all evil comes from some otherworldy demonic being. **

No verses I pointed to were intended to infer any such thing.

Man must own his own evil.

What I have said is that there ARE otherwordly demonic spiritual beings, and that they are a part of the cosmology of the spiritual universe, and that the scriptures speak of them and their influence and activity.

I know it is difficult for us to hear one another clearly through a medium such as this, but we ought to try not to listen to one another and not jump to conclusions and far-fetched extrapolations… :laughing:

I am discussing the scriptures with y’all. Thats all :wink:

#45

It’s more a case of following Paul’s usage of the Hebraic language, Eph 6 being no exception, in referencing Jewish earthly rulers/powers; their “spiritual” characterisation denoting and confirming them as the ruling religious elites of Israel, i.e., within Judaism. It should be noted that such loaded adjectives as “forces” “hosts” appear NOWHERE in the Greek text of Eph 6:12 … such are English INTERPRETIVE flavours massaged ONTO the text.

Again prophetic language such as “heavenlies” can be understood as euphemistic of the Temple hierarchy… as I pointed to previously. Such “cosmic” language was not uncommon. Joseph in speaking of the hierarchal leadership above him i.e., his brothers, father and mother describes them in terms of “the sun, moon and stars” doing obeisance to him, and they KNEW EXACTLY what he was saying (Gen 37:8-10). Again this “heavenly” language is likewise used by Jesus in predicting the overthrow of the Temple…

“the powers of the heavens will be shaken” – these powers were none other than Israel’s Priestly “rulers and authorities” the “authorities and powers” the “powers and principalities” – those “spirituals of evil” aka the “world rulers of darkness” the “rulers of this age” (the OC age) having crucified the Lord of glory and thus coming to naught (1Cor 2:6-8). This IS all Paul’s unequivocal language.

National catastrophe had struck once with Babylon where Israel’s “lights” were put out and… “yet once more will I shake not only the earth (the land), but also heaven (the Temple) Heb 12:26. So-called “context” has been appealed to but as always assumptive presuppositions placed therein. IF the weight of textual evidence means anything there IS a stronger case for reading such “spiritual” language as pertaining to people as opposed to ethereal beings in these passages.

Having said all that, I’m not challenging the likes of the angelic realm (good or bad)… what I’m trying to make clear is that THESE texts under discussion can legitimately, contextually and exegetically be seen as touching terra firma as opposed to the wild blue yonder.

#47

Are they robots Dave, which they got on sale from ancient Atlantis? :laughing:

And maybe one will make a better choice, then either Hillary or Trump :laughing:

#48

No jokes about Atlantis - you just got taken off the ‘protected’ lists…

#49

Actually, I’m a hopeful Atlantis believer. I hope Plato was not jiving us and Atlantis will rise again - and teach us how to make robots like Mr. Data of Star Trek. :exclamation: :smiley:

#50

Actually, I’m a hopeful Atlantis believer. I hope Plato was not jiving us and Atlantis will rise again. And teach us how to make robots, like Mr. Data of Star Trek. :exclamation: :smiley:

#51

It’s one thing to drop his name, Randy - but it’s another to have played foosball with Plato while waiting for a bowling lane to open up. Just sayin’…

#52

qaz… with regards to “THESE texts under discussion” I was being specific to the Ephesian passages alone… hence the above qualifier. I am however a little agnostic on said “demons”… does being “rational beings” (which I do accept) require such to be ethereal? Jesus himself said… “and one of you is a devil.”

#53

Eaglesway, I apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intention :confused: :slight_smile: I was trying to make the point that just because the Bible mentions demons, it does not prove that they exist. How does one tell the difference between the evilness from a man’s own heart or the evilness perpetrated by a demon? Besides,don’t they say that evil does not exist in heaven?

qaz, the Bible is filled with colorful language and uses a lot of literary terms to describe things. We know how it is since we write and speak in this same way today. One who cannot “shake the monkey off his back” denotes one who has a problem that he cannot seem to get rid of. in this same sense, a demon could mean an addiction, a person with a mental illness, an evil person, etc. etc.

#54

The last post raises an interesting question. What about Roman Catholic cases of demon possession? From my understanding, they go to great lengths, to eliminate the possible scientific causes. Which means a medical doctor must rule out organic illness. And a psychiatrist must rule out abnormal psychotic or psychological disorders. Does this mean the medical professionals, are getting things wrong :question: Especially if they turn things over to the priest - to preform an exorcism :question:

#55

For mine: I’m less inclined to doubt someone’s lived experience… I might however question their interpretation of said experience.

#56

The real rub is: what if we moderns are mis-diagnosing AND therefore mis-treating a demonic oppression or possession as if it is only a mental disturbance. Our means will not avail against that entity(-ies). Seeing our failure, our ‘therapy’ could become draconian and still be unfruitful.

There is no reason to believe that OUR particular worldview is correct in all its facets, of course.

#57

Nah, I am not the slightest bit offended LLC. Just trying to keep communication clear as to what I am saying, and acknowledging that it is within the limits of my understanding and perspective. I dont know what “they say”- I am just saying what I believe Eph 6:12 is saying.

Davo, I understand that completely, and agree-I use that filter myself. Experience can be genuine even if the understanding is off. But sometimes experience requires a broadening of horizons, and experience sometimes blows a hole in the hull of our systems of thought.

For the sake of experience, whether I understood it properly or not…

Once upon a time a young man was brought to a coffeehouse ministry in Florida, that I was working in as a youth minister and street evangelist. He said that he was hearing voices and voices had been coming out of him unbidden and he was afraid. When we gathered to pray(there was about 5 of us there) He began to scream in gutteral voices, weird stuff like “glory to Satan” and growling and behaving in a generally violent and insane manner. People held him down and began screaming at him, “Come out in the name of Jesus”. I believed he was probably under the influence of some spirit, but i was not feeling that the screaming “Come out in Jesus name” was working- because after a couple hours, it hadnt.

When everyone had given up the screaming thing and let go of him and he got up to leave.

At that point the Lord spoke to me(I believe) in my heart, “Say, sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus”. I almost didnt, but dubiously yielded and said, “Sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus.” It was like and invisible hand pushed him down on the floor, and it looked like he was trying to get up but couldnt.

By the end of a night of prayer, he was in control of himself but still hearing voices and having insane thoughts. We prayed and fasted with him for three days. Then we took him to a local revival meeting where an Australian missionary who had ministered for years among the aborigines was preaching. After the meeting, we took the young man up to the guy and after some discussion and prayer he commanded the demon to come out and the young man shouted and fell to the floor. He came to in about 15 minutes. I was his pastor for the next two years. He became a fruitful, stable member of our fellowship, and went on to marry a Christian lady and altho I eventually lost touch with him, the last time I saw him maybe 3 years later, he was in Washington DC in a fellowship there, and still serving the Lord. A beautiful brother.

Maybe it was all psychological, but I dont personally believe so. He later told me this all started to happen after he had been in hanging with some street level witches who practiced necromancy and sorcery and other weird stuff.

Maybe I am crazy, or a liar :laughing: …Normally I would not offer a personal experience in a disagreement concerning the word. I don’t think anyone should take anyone’s word for anything, but such as it is the story is true as far as I can understand it.

As Davo said,“For mine: I’m less inclined to doubt someone’s lived experience… I might however question their interpretation of said experience.”

I have had supernatural experiences since I was a child. I can’t say to this day I understand them all, or even most of them. My salvation experience was supernatural, a sovereign revelation of Jesus Christ came upon me when I was 20 years old. I was raised in a non Christian family and had only been to church twice in my life- a Latin mass with my grandmother and a Presbyterian Sunday school when I was 6.

During the last 25 years of my life I have not had many such experiences, but then, I havent been preaching Christ on inner city street and ministering to street people in that time either.

But I am rejoicing everyday that “He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet” Regardless of the nature of those adversaries, or how we see them, it is what it is and all will be gathered into one in Christ, whether things visible or invisible, whether things in heaven or in earth, every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or in earth or under the earth- and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

\o/

#59

Yes that is true and yet actually works forwards as it does backwards…

Again, “experience/s” can be duly noted and be all well and good, BUT are beyond the scope of analysis in terms of “interpretation” being subjective and separate from the text itself. It is totally possible to have a given experience and yet across the passage of time come to “interpret” the same differently due to further experience.

IF we can determine something to be “thus and so” within or according to a particular religious condition/tradition or framework, regardless of whether there be any actual factuality to that belief, then WHY could the same likewise not be true of the ancients? IOW… the ancients framed their language, interpretation and beliefs according to the prevailing culture of the day; we all do.

#60

I get what you are saying, but the NT scriptures speak of experiences similar to my own, so in addition to a predisposition I have to believe that “God breathed words” from holy men moved of God must have more reality to them than your disposition of them allows(my opinion)- I see more than ignorant primitive men communicating a mythunderstanding do to the limitations of their time in history and intellectual immaturity.

For instance, even if all of those incidences attributed to demons were psychological occurences with nothing to do with spirits- they were still dealt with by invoking the name of Jesus in faith. If that is all myth(the works of Christ and the 12 in the gospels and Acts), like I have said before, no offence meant to anyone, but the book is no different than any other collection of platitudes. I know that is a current view, and I am familiar with the idea that the historic cultural mind is evolving and that evolution is metaphorically expressed in the scriptures- and to some that applies to all the scriptures of the major cultures, philosophies and religions of man.

When Jesus said, “If I cast out demons by the finger of God then the kingdom(domain, authority) of God is come among you”- was He making allowances for their ignorance? Were His words that empty? Is that a hyperbolic or mythical exaggeration by the writers?

There is really no common ground for agreement on issues such as this between those who hold such views and myself. I think the scriptures hold much more verity than that in the narratives and in the epistles.

I prefer to believe that the 12 foundation stones and the chief cornerstone were spiritual men who walked in a reality greater than ours- not lesser.

Paul was caught up to the third heaven and heard words he could not share. Myth? This happened and somehow Paul was still just an ignorant primitive who did not really get what he was dealing with? if only he had some medicine or a sedative in his bag of tricks we would be free from such dillusions as mine. :laughing:

#61

This is too often the problem when a view other than the one being espoused is brought to the fore… it gets reframed as though it is treating your position as… “ignorant, primitive, mythunderstanding, (bound by) limitations (of) intellectual immaturity, myth, platitudes, empty, mythical, exaggeration” – none of these adjectives have fallen from my mouth with regards to YOUR position – THIS is what you are hearing WHEN something other than your position is being touted… it seems a shame a defensive, even as… “if only he had some medicine or a sedative in his bag of tricks we would be free from such dillusions as mine. :laughing:”