The passage in Isaiah you quote from, to me, is a multilayered metaphor of the evil pride of man. Leviathan and Behemoth are also given in Job as examples of the wickedness of man. In Isaiah it says "whom the Lord will slay with the sword of his mouth, “In that Day, sing of it- a vineyard”.
But Leviathan can also represent, “the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience” and the lust of the flesh and the pleasures of the mind. It can also represent the adversary- whether the adversary is for you a metaphor or an actual spiritual being doesnt matter- metaphorically they are parallel.
But this has not bearing on this discussion imo. The Bible has many metaphors, and it also has many direct teachings and truths. If one believes all of the gospels are metaphoric hyperbole and mythical morality plays, then perhaps a man born of a virgin impregnated by the Holy Spirit is also a myth.
Maybe “virgin” is symbolic of the spirit of man. And “Logos” is symbolic of the thoughts of the brilliant. And the resurrection is symbolic of the triumph of education and intelligence over brute power.
Maybe there is no “real” Jesus. Certainly the dead are not raised- that would be a miracle and is just too hard to believe.
Totally over indulging your imagination that I was being serious.
I wasn’t categorizing my own beliefs, or yours. I was characterizing the beliefs of the ancients if the histories are not true. Demons? I think LLC asking “if dragons exist” is a good example perhaps, as if to deride anyone who believes demons are literal and exist in the spiritual realm.
What, do you believe in witches too? And sorcerers, too?
Well, yes, I do- not the comic book versions. Some of them run churches. Some of them run cults. Some of them run governments. I have met a few.
These paradigms do lead to unavoidably different destinations in understanding as I see it. Paul was either teaching what is, or what he mistakenly thought as an “ancient”(primitive). The gospels are either histories or they are allegories. If they are allegories they belong beside the Koran and the Vedas and the Budhavacana- not as the medium of arbiting truth about the myth Jesus they represent in allegorical form.
One thing to note is that the terms “satan” and “devil” do not ALWAYS refer to spiritual beings.
Jesus addressed Peter as “satan”, and I don’t think he was implying that Peter was Satan himself. The word “σατανας” (satanas) means “adversary”. Jesus addressed Peter as “Adversary” because Peter said, “This will never happen to you.” Peter was coming against what Jesus intended to do, that is, be crucified for the sins of the world.
The word “διαβολος” (diabolos) does not ALWAYS refer to a spiritual being. The word means “slanderer” or “false accuser”. Jesus said to the twelve, “One of you is a false accuser.” In that He knew the heart of Judas, He realized that Judas would deliver Him up to the authorities, having falsely accused Him before them.
IMO your simplistic either/or view missies the woods for the trees.
If such be the case you’d better then cut Jesus’ use of ‘parable’ (a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson) out of the gospels as well, given you elect they carry no more meaning than “the Koran and the Vedas and the Budhavacana.”
Again I’m simply noting, as I understand it… whether ancient or modern in belief, the texts DO NOT require said “authorities and powers” etc to be ethereal, i.e., “spiritual” does NOT have to mean “otherworldly” – example… the gentiles partook of Israel’s “spiritual things” Rom 15:27 – aka the blessing of Christ.
Eaglesway, No. I was not deriding anyone with my comment. I was simply pointing out that the Bible uses many metaphors to describe things. You say that the dragon represents the pride of evil men; that Leviathan is an example of the wickedness of men, or it could mean the adversary, whether metaphorical or real, it’s basically the same. You also admit that the Bible uses metaphors, but then go on to say that the Bible is either history or allegories. I’m not too sure where you’re coming from. When I say I don’t believe that demons or Satan are real spiritual beings, you seem to have a problem with this.Why can’t these things be metaphorical as well? Yes, the Bible is a mixture of many different kinds and styles of writing. Is there no truth in a moral story, a piece of poetry, a parable proverb etc. etc.?
qaz, on the contrary, I don’t see why verses about demons cannot be taken metaphorically. There are even some, that if taken literally, make no sense at all. For example Matthew 15:21-27 where the Gentile asks Jesus for help with her demon-possessed daughter. He says that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ,then He goes on to say that it is not right to feed the children’s bread to the dogs.
Also, the example you gave about the demons being cast into pigs. Again, if you cast a demon into a pig, and it kills itself, does this kill the demon? Or, once the pig is dead, does the demon just go out to possess someone else? What is the point then when you end up with is just a dead pig? There seems to be no reason for it.
Anything can be a metaphor. That doesnt mean the thing used as metaphor does not exist in reality, or that because it is used in metaphor in one place, that everywhere else it is a metaphor.
Jesus cast out a lot of metaphors I guess, and taught His disciples to do the same.
This is true. However, we have proof that demons exist metaphorically, but there is no proof that they are real. IMO, it is only a theory. Pointing to Bible verses still does not prove it, such as in the case of the dragon.
I don’t know, there LLC. You probably won’t see “scientific evidence” that demons exist. But you will find plenty of contemporary and historical cases, in the Roman Catholic archives.
Just this Sunday, I was talking to a reliable person I know. He mentioned his brother was involved, in some ancient snake cult. And he witnessed his brother, glide across the air. Until he destroyed the medallion his brother wore. Maybe this person let his imagination wonder. Or his brother brought some invisible roller skates, from a mad scientist. I prefer the hypothesis, that his brother was possessed.
And for those who don’t believe in demon possession - I offer this. Be like the PhD anthropologist and controversial book writer, Carlos Castaneda. Learn enough French to get you by. Then visit the French quarter of New Orleans and the island of Haiti. Figure out how to get invited as an observer, to some authentic Voodoo ceremonies. Then come back and honestly tell me, you don’t believe in demon possession. Any takers qaz LLC Anyone
Just stay away from the ones who offer the $60K fertility solution, like the priestess in this video. The rest of the video, appears true to me.
For $60K, I offer to be the tour guide to Haiti - for anyone on this forum. And I promise you, I’ll take you to some genuine Voodoo ceremonies. You just need to sign a waver, releasing me of all legal responsibility. I’ll even intercede in French for you. All for the amazing low price of $60K
I’ll even take you to the other side, of the Island. The Dominican Republic. And intercede in Spanish for you.
.
I’ll find some ceremonies, where the Lao is possessing people. Guaranteed. All for the amazing low price of $60K
If any genuine priestess charges you an amount like $60K - for a fertility cure (or any other cure), I’ll add this. I promise to barter them down, to a fraction - of that asking price. All as an extra free bonus.
So if you want to see the real thing, you can for the **amazing low price **of $60K.
But don’t be like the guy, who went to observe some African head hunting, cannibal tribe. He got invited to lunch. The last I heard, he mentioned the chief said lunch won’t start, until he arrived. I haven’t heard from him, for the longest time.
It is not impossible for eye-witness accounts recorded well after the event/s (as were the Gospels) to become embellished with “detail” that might be beyond the actual event itself, though fully in sync with the mindset of the day and that not by way of exaggerated deception, but by talking in accord with the culturally expressive norms of the day, i.e., such experiences were “interpreted” (believed) to be the genuine course of the world as they understood it and so “described” accordingly.
Now in terms of ‘the bay of pigs’ incident one has to ask… what would good Torah-abiding Jews be doing owning, herding and tending swine? – such were “unclean” and “detestable” and in terms of ‘the Law’ forbidden (Lev 11:7-8; Deut 14:8).
Again the whole Mk 5:1-17 account can be understood in terms as picturing Israel’s greater desolate state before the Lord… a rebellious, obstinate and covenant-breaking people. It’s not that this incident didn’t occur BUT that in the retelling of the story some “details” could well have been coloured by their greater national story. With this thought in mind and the “demonised Gadarene” – “Legion” – “swine” read Isaiah…
No doubt the Gadarene account is true and yet as always “details tell a bigger story” – was this about ethereal possession or about Israel’s Messiah sweeping the cupboard clean only for SOME within Israel hankering after the protection of their own ways pleading him to “move on”? (Mk 5:17; Mt 8:34; Jn 11:48)
Heightened states of trance/consciousness while being described in terms of “possession” DO NOT necessitate ethereal habitation or confluence… the human condition is extremely complex suggestively mouldable and malleable. “The devil made me do it!” is a tried and tested formula… but even from the beginning, found wanting!
qaz, the demoniacs mentioned may be just people involved in worship of other gods. Societies such as the ancient Mayans got into some pretty sick stuff like tearing people’s hearts out, throwing their children into lakes, burning people at he stake, etc.etc. It could also be referring to people who were not involved in cults, but were basically just plain sick-minded. Drugs could also have something to do with it. I would say that the use of them is nothing new. I believe the mind is like the body, if you feed it crap, it will eventually manifest itself in one way or another.
Well, qaz. If you want to see people gliding across the room, a video won’t do it. A video can be faked, by the appropriate video expert. They can make anything you see in the Exorcist movie, or the worst horror movie - happen! And if you do see any actual event, where someone glides across the room - guess what? A clever magician, practicing western slight of hand - or smoke and mirrors - can accomplish this. And if you go to Haiti and can observe some genuine Voodoo rituals, it might make a different impression. You just need to know how to find a “genuine” ceremony. And avoid the con artists. Like someone charging $60K for a healing. Even if they can do it, they are taking advantage of Western wealth perception and western gullibility.
And nobody will convince folks that the supernatural exists. Take miracle healing - for example. Even if they see the Western medical doctors testify someone is incurable. Or they see the medical tests for themselves - both before and after. Even if I say I have seen these things take place, in Native American ceremonies…or places like Catholic sacred sites…or the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends. It would take years of field work, like the PhD anthropologist Carlos Castanada has witnessed - or reported. Do you fall for the Benny Hinn TV parlor tricks? Is Carlos telling good stories, reporting actual events - or both What do you - or others out there - think
Let’s try a little exercise. Let’s watch a video from the now deceased, self-proclaimed Indian holy man. In the video, he reportedly materializes different objects:
How do you know this video is genuine or the work of a video expert - faking it?
How do you know that this person is not a magician, skilled in the art of western stage magic?
How do you know these are real materialization’s?
And if real, what is the source? Demon? God? A saint’s real presence? Etc.?
Let’s ask these same questions, in this Benny Hinn video:
And how would you know if …something is real or faked in a video?..something you see is real or a clever, western magic show parlor trick?..if folks are giving “fake” testimonies?..Something you experienced is real - someone slipped you a drug - or your imagination is wandering? What do the theologians and “experts” out there think
Very revealing Haiti voodoo video clip above, from randylkemp. As in Haiti, there are (a few) folks here in Mexico who think they’re serving God by inviting unclean spirits to manifest through them.
Let me offer a sincere anecdotal explanation of why I think some (human) people might not recognize the reality of Satan and demons as genuine persons—possessing a mind, will, and emotions:
1. Perhaps they are not a born-again Christian, as per John 3:7, “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’” (Of course, some people recognize the reality of Satan, even though they are not born of the Spirit, e.g., devil worshipers.) 2. Or perhaps if they are indeed a genuine Christian, they have not yet experienced the filling and overflow (baptism) of the Holy Spirit, as per Acts 2:3, 10:44-46, 19:5-6. (Of course, many/most Christians recognize the reality of a literal Satan, even though some may reject the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and his supernatural Gifts as being available for today, e.g., John MacArthur.)
Notes for that second point:
A. That is to say, although they have indeed received the Spirit of Christ and are born again/saved,—like the disciples at this point in time after the Resurrection HERE:
they have still not yet also invited/received the Spirit’s filling/baptism, and his outflow/manifestation (through his gifts), like the disciples at this later point in time HERE:
B. The “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” does not impart the FRUIT of the Spirit (e.g., love, joy, peace—Gal. 5:22, Eph. 5:9), which comes with maturity, but rather the GIFTS of the Spirit (e.g., tongues, prophecy, discerning of spirits), which the Spirit is “…dividing to each severally as he will.” 1 Corinthians 12:11. The Gifts require no maturity to use, or misuse.
Unfortunately, through misunderstanding, i.e., Cessationism (vs. Continuationism, see 1, 2, 3, 4) or ignorance, the salvation experience and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit often still form a two step process. I believe it would be great if salvation, water baptism, and Holy Spirit baptism could all be received together on the same day.
qaz, I agree. I don’t believe that speaking in tongues means uttering incoherent gibberish that nobody understands. I think that things like this come from taking the Bible too literally. Interpretation of the Bible could mean, as you suggested, translation from one language to another. But is could also be reading and understanding what the words really mean. Even in the same language, words have many different meanings, as we all know. As Hermano mentioned, I think that understanding comes through experience, and someone who’s “been around the block” is going to have a little more insight.
Regarding the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, if we are hungry for more of God, He will satisfy us: “Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied.” Luke 6:21.
Jesus said, “Whoever therefore humbles himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.” Matthew 18:4.
Are we hungry for more of God? Are we willing to humble ourselves again, as we did when we first believed?
Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yes, there are creepy, unscrupulous charlatans on TV, praying in tongues, and trying to separate widows from their life savings. Yes, there are even non-Christians who supposedly pray in tongues! But where there is smoke, there is fire. If Satan is promoting a counterfeit smokescreen, there must a genuine manifestation he is trying to obscure and discredit.
“Perfect love casts out fear.” 1 John 4:18. Let’s not be afraid of Satan’s tricks and counterfeits.
As to tongues today being “incoherent gibberish,” well, there is always the gift of interpretation of tongues. 1 Cor. 12:10.
I recognize two distinct categories of tongues from my own Christian experience:
1. As a private devotional language to God, whereby “my spirit prays,” and I am “edified.” Here, it is communication up from MAN TO GOD. 1 Cor. 14:4,14.
2. As a public alternative to prophecy, whereby the message in tongues, after being spoken out publicly, must be interpreted into the vernacular language of all the hearers, for their edification. Here, as with the gift of prophecy, it is communication down from GOD TO MAN. 1 Cor. 14:5.
-The first category of tongues can, and should, be done by all Christians who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.
-The second category of tongues can only be done by those who have specifically received the Gift of Tongues, working in concert with those who have received the gift of interpretation of tongues.
In closing, I would just say, trust the Lord about this question of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, and (gasp) its accompanying devotional prayer language. Ask Him about it, friends, and remember:
Blessings.
PS In regard to Christians nowadays speaking in an unlearned, recognized modern language (vs. an unknown language, whether human or angelic)—the same as what occurred in Jerusalem at Pentecost—I have heard of it happening. Here are several discussions, though I can’t personally vouch for the testimonies: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
Good post, Hermano, thanks.
A number of us here are from Assembly of God or other ‘pentecostal’ denominations and have seen both the excesses and the blessings of the gift.
I don’t want to offend anyone, but Matthew 6:5 says this: “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets.” We should be wary of people who make a public spectacle of things, even if it is in the church. Again, I believe “speaking in tongues” is the twisting of words, like that of demon, to make it something other than what it actually means.
I really did 
qaz 
What do you - or others out there - think 