The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Prince of the power of the air?

Theology Biblical Theology
#90

I agree LLC, even tho I believe in speaking in tongues in a more Charismatic or Pentecostal sense.

Paul was very clear as well about the use of that gift(whatever one believes it involves) in the assembly. All things were to be done decently and in order, tongues were only to be spoken with interpretation.

One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. 6But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?…1 Cor 14:6

“What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.” 1 Cor 14:26

In the early church it appears there was much more participation by diverse members of the assembly and whatever they shared was subject to discussion for the purpose of discernment. “Let the prophets speak two or three and let the others judge. Test all things, hold fast that which is good.”

Today people take the word “prophets” as those who speak futuristic prophecies or reveal secrets, but Paul saw a broader understanding- “For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets”- instruction and exhortation appear to be the primary purpose of prophesying- which I believe was teaching or preaching in an orderly manner.

Ecstatic speaking in the assembly was not encouraged by Paul, but rather “speaking the truth in love” unto the edification of the body so that…

As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. Eph 4

#91

God is going to do what God is going to do - as strange as glossolalia is, it is not a gift to be despised. I know many saints of God who do speak in tongues in their private devotions, and are as sane and of proven character as the many saints I know who do not.

The practice is not a short-cut to spiritual maturity, or in fact a short-cut at all; it does not take the place of obedience, or standing fast in trials, or in resisting temptation - it is for the uses Paul (who spoke in tongues a lot, apparently) encourages as stated above.

#92

Hermano quoted:
Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Matthew 7:9-11.

Or as Luke reports Jesus’ words:
If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him! (Luke 11:11-13)

#93

There is also a charismatic movement, in the Roman Catholic Church. I’ve know a priest for years. He has both the gift of healing and hearing God speak. And I’ve been on the receiving end many times, of his healing touch.

#94

A lot of people don’t even seem to get what God has to say in plain old English. I don’t think He’s going “Let me see, maybe if I say ‘do unto others’ in a strange unknown language that no one has ever heard of, they might just get the message.” Then again, knowing us humans, that might just work. :laughing:

#95

The principle is that, if in public, the tongue while unknown to the speaker, must be understood by the recipients, either by it being in their language or having an interpreter.
In private devotions, of course, speaking in tongues is not in the language of the devotee.

I’ll not deny that it is a strange phenomenon.

#96

This seems an appropriate time to share with you a true story that my sister Lorraine related to me. She used to attend the major Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada church in Winnipeg (same as Assemblies of God in the U.S.A.), and was present at the meeting in which the following events occurred.

One day in the church, a man stood up and began to speak in tongues. When he finished, he remained standing. Then the pastor asked, “Is there an interpreter?” …(silence). The pastor then said, “Sit down, Brother. You are out of order.” The man sat down, and the service continued as usual. When the meeting was over, a man of Chinese descent came up to the pastor and asked, “Who was that man who was speaking in Chinese?”

“Huh? What do you mean?”

“There was a man who stood up and talked in Chinese.”

Then the pastor understood. As it turned out, the Christian brother, who did not know Chinese at all, had given the gospel in Chinese. And this resulted in the man of Chinese descent became a believer, entrusting himself to Christ.

In the next service, the pastor apologized for his lack of spiritual discernment, and acknowledged that the brother who had spoken “in tongues” was completely in order, acting under the inspiration of God.

#98

qaz. As I’ve mentioned earlier, a video can be doctored - by a video expert. And a person can be portrayed to be speaking fluent Chinese in tongues - by a master illusionist. I’m not saying Paidion would do this. I’m just saying that neither videos - nor eye-witnessing supernatural events - rules out video masters creating the effect…nor skilled illusionists producing the same results live (with “doctored” expert testimony). As I provided examples (i.e. earlier in this thread) with the Sathya Sai Baba materialization videos and the Binny Hinn charismatic healing videos.

Both can be produced by video experts
Both can be rendered live by master illusionists and folks paid (to give endorsements of healing).

#99

This is not aimed at anyone in particular - not LLX, Hermano, Paidion or anyone else. In general:

It’s been my experience - documented only by me, though :lol - that there is a level of doubt that cannot be overcome by any amount of documentation. even sworn testimony as to the reality of an inspired speaker speaking in a human language unknown to him, would not be sufficient; neither would a filmed record of such; neither would be a person’s own observation of such? Because each element of the experience can be questioned.

And I am not unsympathetic to that level of doubt, having had it many times - for me, it was usually a ‘gut’ feeling that something could NOT BE so! - but the only cure for that would be another gut feeling, not a reasonable argument.
The best way for discussions to continue is for each side to present evidence for/against, and reasonable arguments (part of the evidence) to justify the opinions. All we can do is choose what to believe. Gut vs Gut has never gotten me anywhere. :slight_smile:

#100

In the case that Paidion has presented, my reasonable argument would be, that if there were no people in the assembly that could understand Chinese, then why was the man speaking in Chinese? To me, this seems totally unnecessary and useless. So how did the other guy know the man was speaking in Chinese if he did not know the language? If he did know the language, then why didn’t he stand up and interpret?

To me, “speaking in tongues” in the charismatic sense is a good example of why we need interpreters, people who understand the meaning of the words in the bible. So, as Eaglesway has mentioned, that we are not tossed to and fro and carried away by every whim and doctrine of men.

#101

In Paidion’s account, there was a Chinese-speaking person in the congregation to whom the utterance was meaningful. Yes, someone who also spoke Chinese could have shared the Gospel with him in that language. OTOH, hearing a message from God coming to you supernaturally would have a certain weight to it, I think.
As to why God would choose that method, how would I know? I think the preponderance of evidence, though (the kind of evidence I think is appropriate to this subject, i.e.) from scripture, personal experience, and the accounts of people I know and trust - God does in fact employ this gift of the Holy Spirit for His uses.

#102

LLC, I know only what my sister told me, concerning what she saw in the meetings. I was not there; I have no evidence of any kind. In those days, no one carried cell phones with which to take videos. I accepted my sister’s first-hand experience; she had no reason to lie.

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But there was a man who understood Chinese. He was a visitor to the church and was not a Christian. It seems that the Lord saw fit to present the gospel to him in his own language.

Why? Is the presentation of the gospel in a visitor’s native tongue “unnecessary and useless” if it results in the man’s conversion to Christ?

Chinese was the first language of “the other guy.”

He was a visitor, and possibly felt uncomfortable about doing that. He may have thought only members were being asked to translate or “interpret.”

#103

The last enemy to be destroyed is death, God’s word declares.

So enemies…adversaries…exist. First, second, third etc. Legions even. Against God, against His righteous reign in man…which is love.

Jesus told us that the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy but that He comes to give abundant life.

Jesus cast out demons from people the scripture says. I have never done that, even in His Holy Name, as a believer. I don’t even like to think about the reality of such dark entities existing.

I saw Him do it though and at the time I didn’t even realize all that was going on. I was just a by-stander at the time and watched while God did a work in a man who had hung himself and appeared already dead.

What I witnessed was that noone could loose him from the way he hung himself. Then he was suddenly loosed and fell sideways like a feather into my arms instead of dropping 2 floors to concrete.

He woke up and when I saw him in the hospital later he said he knew the man " downstairs" was real. That entity told him how to kill himself. But now he knows the man “upstairs” is real.

We spoke about Jesus some…as he lay in that hospital bed with a bruised neck.

I’m not one who goes around telling people demons are real, in general. It’s just that I am one who holds scripture as true and God-breathed and additionally witnessed the Lord set one man free from a thief that came to steal, kill and destroy him.

But even had I not witnessed it…when Jesus…who is Truth…says something about Anything…well then. It is true.

He sent His word and healed them (us)

#104

Paidion, I see what you are saying, and no, I don’t think that you sister was lying either. But, how does anyone know that the man speaking Chinese did not really know the language? Yes, there are many gifted people who are multi-lingual. If God can make a man instantly speak another language, then why doesn’t He do this for all, on a regular basis. It would certainly save a lot of time and trouble in having to go through the learning process.
John 5:31 says this: “If I testify of Myself, My testimony is not true.” I believe what this verse is saying is that God testifies through man and through His creation. In other words, even if God can act through supernatural occurrences, I don’t think that He testifies in this way due to the fact that they cannot be proven true or false. As Randy mentioned, such things can be feigned and done through “smoke and mirrors”. That is the difference between God and man. God’s testimonies are able to be seen by all and proven to be true. If people need to see a supernatural event in order to believe in God, I think they may be looking in the wrong place.

#107

biblehub.com/ylt/john/10.htm

#108

There is a real misunderstanding going on here, and I’m not sure what is driving it.
Paul lays out very simple directions for the use of the gift; but here we go off in varying directions, not directions authorized by Paul, in order to prove that Paul was not correct? I think the philosophical term for this is that it is bass-ackwards.

Distortions that have been introduced into Paul’s teaching do NOT invalidate his teaching.
If we have some apriori negative feelings about the supernatural gifts, it’s our intellectual duty to recognize those feelings as such and scrutinize them. That’s basic epistemology, basic empiricism.

Think carefully before accusing certain ‘brothers and sisters’ of superstition, or less-than-philosophically rigorous theological positions. There are many among them who, perhaps not as bright as you, are wiser than all of us, and closer to God.

This happened to me, and I am not lying: I was part of a home church when I was stationed in the Philippines in 1968. The owners of the house were a staff sergeant - USAF - and his wife. She was a very simple woman. Not sophisticated but certainly not stupid.
At a dinner at their home - the often had a number of us grunts over for dinner, bless them - we were preparing to leave to get back to the base when it was mentioned that one of us was being reassigned, and we all thought that prayer for him was in order, and he was anxious for our prayers.
So, we all stood up kind of loosely scattered around him and began to pray.
Now I am not particularly spiritually sensitive, but at that time I was growing as a Christian, trying to listen for God in differing circumstances, but I was shy. As we prayed, the thought kept hammering into me that I should lay a hand on that brother’s forehead and pray aloud for him. I was too scared. This went on for a couple of minutes before the wife walked deliberately over to me, grabbed my hand and startling me because my eyes were closed, looking me in the eye and walking me over and placing my hand on the fellow’s forehead. She actually was a little angry, I think - like “What are you waiting for?”.
So I prayed and he told us it was at that moment that a great sense of peace came upon him.

Okay, not earth-shattering, as stories go - but by God it is a true story, and the woman, it turns out, was known for great spiritual insight. I had not known that.

My life has NOT been full of that sort of thing, but I’ve seen enough that is not wish-fullfilment, but actual gifts of God, that my faith has been increased. I do not rely on those things, they are not the BASIS of faith, but I sure don’t sneer at them.

So again - be careful of what you do not understand.
Off the soapbox for now…

#109

Sometimes God arranges things, like you find related in the stories of TV minister Joel Osteen.

Yesterday, I was in the Just Tires local store, having some brake fluid changed. And the minister of the Anglican Church I attend, came in to have a tire checked. He never goes to this place. And we got to talking.

It turns out that before in was in the ministry, he had careers in opera and television production. This I found fascinating. And I shared some car tips, that he could use. I’m not a car expert - just a good researcher. For example:

I told him that Auto Zone and Advanced Auto Parts, both sell wipers and batteries. And they will install them free of charge. They also will give you both the technical and English meaning, of a check engine code.
I told him about an honest Christian mechanic, who was in his area. And he’s been in the business for 30 years.
I mentioned that Just Tires can do more then tires and pointed him to some basic mechanic services they do.
I also mentioned that if they can’t diagnose the tire problem, then he can go to Discount Tires nearby - for another opinion.
And if he ever needed the info, I can tell him how to research after market parts makers. And even how to see, if they are in the OEM business also.

We also had some time to discuss theology and especially a Lutheran/Eastern Orthodox dialogue.

Now you might say this meeting was coincidence - but I prefer to think otherwise.

#110

Dave, I am not saying that Paul was incorrect. I just believe that what he says is being misinterpreted.
Mark 16:17-18 says this: “And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick , and they will recover.”
There are people out there who hold religious snake handling services and pass around poisonous snakes expecting not to be harmed because of these verses. I’ve even heard that some consume such things as arsenic as well. Yes, words DO have many different meanings and have oftentimes been misinterpreted to say something other than what is actually being said.

#111

Nobody ever ventured an answer - to my previous video questions. Are the materialization objects, by the diseased Indian holy man…and the instant healing miracles, on the Benny Hinn TV video:

Faked by video experts?
Done by either expert magicians (trained in western magic of illusion and smoke and mirrors)…or paid people, to give fake testimonies…or some other means of trickery?
The real thing?

And if the real thing, what do you attribute it to? Let’s view them again - shall we? And be sure to explain which of the 3 categories you feel or think is correct - and why.

#112

LLC - I do have a tendency to read my presuppositions into what others are saying - normally I’m aware of the tendency and can correct for it; thanks for clearing up your stance on Paul. :smiley:
.
Randy - oh, do I have stories. I won’t bore you with them - but I have witnessed ‘barking in the spirit’ , being ‘slain’ in the spirit; legs lengthened; demons cast out (the exorcist told me it felt like ‘trying to land a huge fish’); piles of crutches from healed folks at an A.A. Allen tent show. Etc.
And I did not ‘believe’ in any of them, even though I was there as a witness.
Can I give criterion for my judgment? Not really. Honestly, it may just be a matter of taste! I don’t like a carnival atmosphere, I don’t like a blatantly emotional appeal divorced from a responsible exegesis of scripture; I don’t like - well 'nuff said, the point being that I was, perhaps wrongly, offended by the way things were handled, or the flippancy or arrogance of the particular minister.
Much as I would like to flatter myself that I have the gift of ‘discernment of spirits’ it is no doubt closer to the truth that I’m a snob. :blush: