The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Prince of the power of the air?

Theology Biblical Theology
#113

DaveB,

Wow, saw A. A. Allen! I came along a little too late for that, but I did eventually do a study of all the big time evangelists, and went to see a few of them.

When I was looking into the Assemblies of God it was because, having been saved supernaturally by a touch from God, and having seen many supernatural things in my days of drugs and sorcery and eastern mysticism - I knew that God is supernatural and that Jesus Christ walked as a man but also exercised gifts of healing and miracles at the discretion and command of His Father, and by the Spirit of YHWH within Him. But the record is that He walked as a humble teacher and servant- not as a carnival barker.

The Pentecostal roadshows I attended were so full of weird and carnal things- as were so many of the Pentecostal and Charismatic meetings I attended- I quickly became cynical regarding them, but I never became cynical about the gifts of the Spirit because I had seen them in quiet places, particularly an instantaneous healing within my own family. There was a good book I read once, called The Real Faith by an old Canadian revivalist from the 30’s and 40’s- Charles Price, that (imo) divided the true from the false in terms of spiritual manifestations and their sources in a scripturally rich and discerning fashion- also Two Worlds, another book from him on the same topic.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ Mt 7

"Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven Lk 10

an act of kindness out of love for someone in need is more powerful than a miracle, and worth more when weighed in the balance of God. What I love about the testimony of Jesus’ miracles, is that they were all accompanied by love stories- the love of the Gentile woman(a scrap for a dog at His table) for her daughter…the love of Jairus the commander for his son… the love of Jesus for the little girl, “Talitha arise”… His love towards the helpless crippled man at the well at Bethesda… the feeding of the 5,000, etc.

#114

Your last paragraph is just perfect, thanks.

I could actually feel A.A. Allen from three blocks away…this was in Oakland in the early 70’s…the meeting music was so loud it shook the earth. :laughing:

#115

Gee, Dave. If i can share a Sathya Sai Baba materialization video and a Benny Hinn charismatic healing video - then why not a short A.A. Allen healing video? I have to admit - he has more charisma then the other two put together. :exclamation: :laughing:

But I went to the local mosque open house today and drank some Zam Zam water. Then I got a free brief health check up there - from a local Muslim medical doctor. I was in perfect health. Must be the Zam Zam water :exclamation: :laughing:

#116

These miraculous events are rare, and they were just as rare in Bible times. It’s just that the ones that took place then were recorded. It’s the same today. I don’t know why God sometimes performs miracles for some people, but doesn’t perform them for all, or seems to perform them randomly. I don’t think anyone knows. The fact that He does it for some, doesn’t mean that those people are closer to God than anyone else, or more spiritual.

Sometimes God miraculously heals in answer to prayer. But usually, He doesn’t. I cannot explain that. Nor have I ever heard a satisfactory explanation. God does what He wants.

The age-old “problem of pain” is essentially the same “problem.” Why does God “allow” such atrocities as little girls being raped and tortured to death? I don’t know the answer, but I do know this. We ought not to blame God for failing to act. He didn’t do the evil. Evil men performed these evil acts. God usually doesn’t interfere with free will.

I have experienced only 3 miracles (that I have recognized as such) in my long life of 78 years. But I am loathe to relate them. For when I have, people with whom I shared them (including Christians) have either pooh-pooed them, or have tried to explain them away, or have suggested that I have false memories, etc. I often wonder how many miracles modern disciples of Christ have actually experienced but who won’t share them for the same reason that I won’t.

I just don’t understand why some Christians are so adamant in their belief that God never performs miracles anymore.

#117

God performs miracles all the time. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions would say that, via holy places, saints and relics. The Pentecostal churches would affirm it. Holy people of all religious traditions confirm it. And God regularly uses different people - both Christian and non-Christian - that God works the miracles through. But people who “advertise”, “sell tickets”, collect donations for their personal miracle crusades and benefit, etc. - are not the places where the action is. That’s not to say that people can’t experience miracles through folks like Sathya Sai Baba, Benny Hinn or A.A. Allen. But it would have more to do with the person’s personal faith - then the individuals mentioned.

And you know the funny thing? Folks that are “real” and “true miracle workers”, are bombarded by offers of bigger houses, sex, power, gold, money, castles, luxury cars, etc. All by rich people, who want to control everything. The true saints reject the offers. Much like Christ did - with the devil’s temptations in the wilderness.

#118

Randy, in answer to your questions, I don’t think the videos have been doctored. In fact, I think they could have used some just to make them a little more impressive. The first one, was basically magic tricks 101. As for Benny Hinn, total fakery! I don’t think it could get any worse than this! (P.S. I hope I didn’t offend anyone. I was just giving honest answers to the questions asked. I don’t want to get in trouble for lying on a Godly forum :slight_smile: )

Paidion, thanks for your response. I do believe that God performs miracles. I see them every day right in front of my very eyes. I watch shows like “The Strangest Weather on Earth”, extreme sports, and “America’s got Talent”. Fly-Boarding? WOW!!! The Great Pyramid, the Sistine Chapel, Mt. Rushmore, the Hoover Dam, etc. etc., these things are unreal. Cell phones, the Space Station, robotics, laser eye surgery and even things like origami are simply mind boggling. The list is endless. To me, these are miracles and awe inspiring testimonies of God. In my book, the charismatic"speaking in tongues" doesn’t even compare. I praise God that He has made us with eyes to see all of this, and that He has given us minds and bodies that allow us to be a part of the creation process.

#119

The key to folks like A.A. Allen and Benny Hinn, is that they always show the successes. However, I do know a Roman Catholic priest (actually 2. One is living and one is deceased), who has the gift of healing and hearing God speak. And also seeing medicine men and women, in the indigenous traditions. Not everyone is healed.

Some are not healed at all.
Some are partially healed.
And some are healed much later

A.A. Allen and Benny Hinn, are like watching a TV movie. The good guys always win. It’s like watching a John Wayne movie. ** Not so.**. Sometimes, it’s just like watching an episode, of the Walking Dead (where the living are sometimes more demented and dangerous - then the zombies). Only God knows why someone is totally healed. And others fall into the categories - mentioned above.

I have seen Sathya Sai Baba in person. I think the stuff is real. But he is not. It’s an evil spirit doing the stuff (i.e. much like the stuff, in the Voodoo video, I shared earlier). He had a strange, hypnotic power. I felt him come in a dream afterwards. The next day (in a meeting with western people), he revealed what was in the dream - without mentioning my name. The key is two dreams I had afterwards:

I see a big Jack-in-the-box. Out comes Sathya Sai Baba. It tells me this is a big joke.
There are two lines of people. Eveyone is going right, to see Sathya Sai Baba. I go to the left, to see an ordinary man and receive his blessings. I am the only one there.

Anyway, let me share this short, contemporary Sufi story. I feel this is the real stuff at TALKS WITH A SUFI SHAYKH:

There are many things for me to ponder on - for the longest time. :laughing:

#120

To me it really doesnt matter much if a guy like Benny Hinn has real or fake healings in his meetings. He has gotten filthy rich off of his “gospel” and to me that is inexcusable. Not to mention his teachings and prophesies are full of baloney. Who knows, maybe even Peter Popov has a few real healings in his meetings, but he is a proven con man and swindler. I dont have any problem with success or with wealth if a person earns it, but to get rich off of the name of Jesus and the desperation of suffering people, well, to me that is a high crime.

When I see these kinds of things I look at the whole picture and use a very crude, simple, maybe even naive rule of thumb…

What Would Jesus Do

#121

Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. Mark 16:20

it is the word of God that is the core of the issue, imo. The adversary’s core paradigm is deception, indulgence and self glorification. The Lord’s is service, love, humility and the divine nature. Discernment is not by the signs- in fact it ought to be in spite of them.

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn. Isaiah 8:20

and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 2 Peter 1:19

Healings and signs occur in various persuasions and from various sources(perhaps even the prince of the power of the air :wink: )

When the adversary gets into the heart and mind of a person who has been gifted by God or has learned to apply the principles of faith, all kinds of perversity can abound.

When a flashy dressed man arrives off his jet in a limo I don’t have to look to hard for myself- its an easy read.

Since I believe in stewardship, I think it is possible to receive or even achieve certain things in the kingdom of God, and then to turn them towards ones own appetites for glory, acclaim and personal empire building. I think it is also common for the articles of faith to be perverted and supplanted by the “elementary principles” of the “god of this world” and “the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience”.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. Col 2:18

As a matter of fact- this kind of story is repeated over and over in the scriptures, from Balaam to Saul to Jeroboam to Judas to Elymas to Simon the Sorcerer.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.” Acts 8:9-25

When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus, who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.8But Elymas the magician (for so his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, and said, “You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? “Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time.” And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand. Then the proconsul believed when he saw what had happened, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord. Acts 13:6-12

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:20

Webster defines sorcery as “the use of magical powers that are obtained through evil spirits…” but the Greek word in the scriptures is “pharmekia”.

Regardless of means and sources and methods- a sorcerer’s primary desire is to be a Great One and to exercise control over people, and usually, to accumulate the privileges and wealth that accompanies the adoration and subservience of a mass of people. There are a lot of sorcerers in popular religion, both in the East and in the West.

“For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,” 2 Pet 2:18

For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. Phil 3:19

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. James 3

These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy. 1 Tim 6:5(paraphrse)

Like Nebuchanezzar’s Head of Gold, they have clay feet and usually get exposed eventually… but as Paul said to Timothy, "Some men’s sins go before them into judgment, some men’s sins follow after.’ 1 Tim 5:24

#122

One of the three results listed above, would be obtained by praying to your coffee cup.

#123

:laughing:

#124

I find the summary in the Sufi story, to be the most important point at TALKS WITH A SUFI SHAYKH:

Or as one indigenous person, considered to be a holy person, once said:

Now the Catholic priests, with the gifts of healing…the medicine men/medicine women/Holy People of indigenous tribes…the Catholic and Eastern orthodox saints…saints from the East and Sufis…the Jewish saintly people …**the real ones **- agree with the answers, given by the Sufi and Native American holy persons.

They don’t:

Advertise
Sell tickets
Take huge chunks of donations for fancy mansions, yachts, luxury cars, etc.
Etc.

Now rich people, who learn about them…might try to tempt them…with the trappings of wealth, fame and fortune - all for the person gain of the wealthy (who do the tempting). But the true saints, will be true to the end and stay the course.

The rest :question: They echo the words of Ed Sullivan:

Now folks like A.A. Allen might be sincere and have some healing gift…I don’t know. But he should sh;y away from a circus atmosphere and let God guide the people to him.

#125

One assumes if it was “instant” coffee you’d have your healing on the spot… :smiley: :mrgreen: :open_mouth:

#127

:laughing: :laughing: Sooo funny but true. Thanks for the laugh!

Randy, in reference to your article, I think that God has many partners. We All have a “supernatural” gift from God. It’s called the mind/intelligence. We just have to put it to good use.

#128

To the coffee enthusiasts. If you use coffee for healing, you have solid grounds on which to base things. :laughing:

And it was Captain Kirk, who once said something to the logical based Spock. It was along the lines regarding intuition. It’s called the **Enemy Within ** episode. :laughing:

But it’s usually based upon experience.

Take homeopathy, for instance. I’ve been studying it for years. But most outside the homeopathic circles, attribute it to the placebo effect. But if I pick the wrong remedy…no matter how much I believe in it…it won’t work. Or a professional I know, giving the correct remedy. It doesn’t work. But when he uses the same one, from the Hahnemann Laboratories in the US - it works.
Or this from the Sufi story:

Or the holy persons, asking the scientific minded people - to do strange things. Like the Sufi in the story, putting honey on a wound. It is cured, without any problem or infection.
Or the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends journal. Containing cases of spirally healing, where traditional medical science has failed. And all the traditional medical approaches are included. And physician testimony included, that saying these healing events are impossible - by medical standards.
Or another holy person from the East, asking someone with diabetes, to eat a heavy saturated sugar product. They do and are cured of diabetes
Or the medicine man, asking the sick person to participate in a ceremony. They get cured.
Or another person from the East, who can change his blood pressure, radically at will - within a few seconds. And a close friend - then a nursing assistant - is administering the blood pressure test.
Or my mom - now deceased at 92.5 - having the lifelong gift of prophesy. And she tells me as a Boy Scout teenager, to take an umbrella to a parade. None of the weather TV or radio services forecast rain. And I got ribbed by fellow scouts. Until there was a downpour, in the middle of the parade. And I was the only one - with an umbrella.
Or the medical doctor, who proclaims a person dead - during a Native gathering. The person had heart issues. But a medicine man does a quick prayer and short ceremony. And they spring back to life. And the paramedics and doctors afterwards, can find no issue on medical tests.
Or the Eastern Orthodox holy person, telling someone to throw away their prescribed medicine. They did and got cured.

Perhaps all these things are testing our scientific perspectives, reason and logic :question: :laughing:

Speaking of reason and logic. On my second visit to the neighborhood Mosque open house, the host said he set up a Q and A session - just for me. He directed to ask anything I wanted, from the residential PhD scholar. Perhaps this is a sign of honor? Or they don’t want to deal, with my difficult questions :question: :laughing:

The redeeming factor is that the people in this particular mosque - are highly educated. They send their children on to become doctors, engineers and IT professionals. :smiley:

#129

Paidion, curious… What was the ‘gospel’ that the person heard in Chinese? That God loves him and he believes, he won’t burn in Hell? It would be more believable if he could provide what it actually said in Chinese since we are supposed to test the spirits. Meaning this: What about God giving a lying spirit to people (or Satan, depending on your interpretation) - Doesn’t that mean all supernatural events could either be of God, or of Satan? Thus, what would it prove? I mean, I am not challenging anything you are saying, I am more thinking out loud. It would only bring us back to the discernment phase, would it not?

#130

True, but my first thought was the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. No miracle was needed and will not be given… Just the law and the prophets. Though one could argue that is precisely why Jesus did NOT give a sign, because they had ‘other’ signs. Perhaps the Chinese person had no signs.

This is too much conjecture, even for me. :slight_smile:

#131

Again, the mind is an amazing thing. I don’t think that we will ever be able to fully comprehend how it all works. When my kids were little, we’d be out at the playground, and of course one of them would always happen to fall and get a scape or two. I would pick up a leaf, put it on the scape and tell them that the leaf had magical healing powers. I’d hold it on there and slowly count to ten;after which, they’d be off running and playing again as if they felt no pain at all. It worked every time until they got a little older and found out that I was basically full of crap. It really had nothing with the leaf but only the fact that they were no longer dwelling on the pain.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I don’t think the early Hebrews ever really believed in Satan or demons as outside evil spirits( the kind that float around in the air).This idea may have been introduced later, by other pagan cultures. So casting out demons may have also been in reference to casting aside a belief that didn’t belong. (It’s just hogwash, pardon the pun. :laughing:) Okay, maybe my humor isn’t all that great. Back to the topic. If people are led to believe that there are outside evil spirits that can control one’s mind, then they will come to think that there is nothing they can do to change it. However, the Bible tells us differently. Philippians 4:8 says whatever things are true, noble, just, pure, lovely, etc. etc.-meditate on them. 2 Timothy 1:7 says “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” Being renewed in the mind is not only dwelling on things of God but also getting rid of false ideas and believing what is true. The mind requires discipline. We must learn to “bring every thought into captivity” and not let them run amok. We do have the power to do this.

#132

When the doctors - the “experts” - say a disease is incurable. And their medical tests - the “experts scientific tests” - indicate it. And they say there’s nothing more that can be done. Then the people go to a Catholic healing site, invoke a saint, enter a healing ceremony, do the Bruno Groening meditation, and get healed…What do we conclude from science, reason and logic? And what do we conclude, when someone witnesses these things first hand?

I’m not a rational person? It’s kind of like telling Africans (i.e. rational scientific minded folks), what snow is like. Not don’t get me wrong. I’ve been trained in science, just like others. I had courses in physics, math, psychology, statistics, philosophy, logic and computer science. I can talk this game, as good as any scientist. And I can implement logic, as good as anyone. But there’s another world out there - that contains the winters and snow. If you haven’t visited it, they you will never know it exists.

But then, I’m not using the scientific method – right? Even if I hung around PhD folks in physics and medical doctors. Or took courses in homeopathy, where I was the only layman, in a room full of medical doctors. Or I worked with electrical and mechanical engineers at Motorola. Or I earned a black belt in statistical methodology at Motorola and guided many engineers there. And when I earned the black belt, I had to be approved - by a committee of “experts”. And answer any question - they put forward. Much like a PhD dissertation committee. Or I had to know enough about statistics and experimental psychology, to earn a masters from Norwich University. Or I worked with Java, Unix and Windows servers, Oracle and SQL Server - while doing software engineering at Motorola. I’m not scientific, logical or rational enough. Right?

So, LLC. What can you teach me, so I can be more logical, scientific and rational :question: And not get my current learning, from the Holy Fools tradition :question: So hit me with you best shot :exclamation: :laughing:

And most important. What is your answer to the tree in the forest - making a sound riddle? :question: :laughing:

#133

Spot on my friend. I think the Bible was ahead of it’s time in regards to neuroplasticity. Meaning, the truths are truth because belief is how we self limit ourselves… That is why, I believe, that Jesus stressed ‘if you believe’. Not that belief in itself has power (though it does have some) but that it opens up the door to expect and experience the power. Effectively, we don’t close it out.