The Evangelical Universalist Forum

'Proportional Punishment in Hell'

Was reading the latest Christianity magazine and came across this article (which is online here - premierchristianity.com/Past … nt-in-Hell )

Now there are a few poorly made points in the piece but I’m interested in the points made on what kolasis actually means. The writer very much describes it in terms of retributive punishment and looks for back up in Jewish writings (this is towards the end of the piece).

I’m interested in hearing the thoughts from people who have far greater knowledge than I do on the meaning of that word to critique how true his claim is and the examples he looks at in Jewish writings

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure. — William Barclay

I think [tag]jasonpratt[/tag] corrected me on that once though . Isn’t timoria used of the guy sleeping with his father’s wife – and the punishment meted out for him is clearly intended to redeem?

What about the examples he mentions?

Hi Jonny –

It’s an interesting take on Jesus’ parables, namely that he’s actually preaching against the Rabbinic doctrine of possible post mortem salvation from hell because he wants to make it clear that it’s not safe to be mediocre in piety – but it doesn’t hold water for me. It’s not the lax and mediocre who Jesus threatens. Rather Jesus threatens the religious rigorists and exclusivists with Gehenna – and those who are expecting violent intervention from God against the Romans. Hmmm there’s a lot more I could say about Hillel and Shammani and Jonathan ben Zakki too. It’s a new and, to me, very strange way of interpreting Talmudic passages. The use of these passages by Christian universalists and Christian ECT promoters goes back a long way; but this article is odd. I guess it’s the annihilationist take on things.

Actually the only place in the New Testament where the noun τιμορια (timoria) occurs is the following verse:

Cindy, perhaps you have this verse in mind:

In this verse, the noun “punishment” is not translated from “τιμορια but” from “επιτιμια”. The latter word is a combination of “επι”(on) and “τιμη” honour).Yet, most translators render the word as “punishment”, although some render it as “rebuke”. This is also the only place in the New Testament in which “επιτιμια” occurs.

Yes, it’s a little involved. The relevant verses are (1) 1 Corinthians 5:5, “I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus,” and (2) 2 Corinthians 2:6, “Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority,” in which the word for punishment is epitimia.

If one goes back far enough, finding roots of roots, one sees that the basic root word of epitimia and timoria is the same, i.e., tino.

So, the punishment applied appears to be corrective even if punitive destruction of some aspect of the person’s nature occurs.

Not according to the Greek lexicons that I have consulted. Nor have I found any evidence that “tino” is a Greek word.

The Greek word τίνω or tinō, which lies at the root of both Greek words epitimia and timoria, is Strong’s Greek Lexicon Number G5099, as can be seen here, among other places on the internet.

Yes, “τινω” is found once in the New Testament (2 Thess 1:9). But no lexicons which I have consulted give this word as the immediate root of “ἐπιτιμια” “epitimia”. All of them say it comes from “τιμη” (timā), which means “honor, value, price”. One of these lexicons say that the latter word comes from the verb “τινω” which seems to refer to punishing penally.

As for “τιμωρια”(timoria), the lexicons say it is derived from its vebal form “τιμωρεω” (timōreō) which is derived from “τιμη” (timā)—honor and “οὐρος”(ouros)—guard. If one got revenge on someone, he was “guarding his honor”. Even today, we hear of “honor killings” in some cultures.

So I concede that both words can be traced back to “τινω”.

It is a fact that Aristotle distinguished “τιμωρια” from “κολασις” as follows:

But it seems that later, the words pretty well became synonyms. Here are some writings in which “κολασις” is used in the retributive and/or penal sense.

Josephus, Antiquities 2:2

**2 Maccabees 4:38 **

**3 Maccabees7:10-15 **

.
(Note: The punishment was the execution of 300 men.)

4 Maccabees 8:9

Cindy is thinking of olethron in the 1 Cor 5 incident of the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy; but it does connect back to the root {tino} and its connection to punitive action via 2 Thess 1:9 which features cognates of both terms.

I often talk about the {tio} term of 2 Thess 1:9 referring to punished people coming to value the justice of their punishment, by means of a topical reference to Isaiah 2 (where Paul is borrowing phrases from a similar description of eschatological punishment and unjust persons trying to escape the presence of YHWH – and failing in somewhat comical fashions!) and thence to Isaiah 4 where those who don’t survive this punishment appeal to the survivors for reconciliation and are purged clean by God’s spirit of fire. To that would be added the olethron callback reference to 1 Cor 5, where regardless of whether Paul expects the SSG to certainly die, Paul does at least hope for his spirit to be saved in the same Day of YHWH to come which he’s talking about at 2 Thess 1. (Thus explaining why Cindy thought she remembered me talking about timoria at 1 Cor 5. I wasn’t, like Paidion I note the noun only appears in Hebrews, but there’s a cognate connection via 2 Thess.)

So both those citational references indicate Paul is talking about hopeful not hopeless punishment, and that fits the concept that those being punished shall come to verb the justice of their eonian olethron; where “verb” equals a rare version of the primitive term to honor or value, or to pay in positive value for something.

Re: timoria, I would want to check any of its cognate references, too, not just its single Hebrews usage in that noun form. But I often warn people not to lean on the typical distinction mentioned by Barclay, because the term does thus show up in the NT, in connection to strong divine punishment language. Hebrews 10 is one of the key hopeless punishment prooftexts, but I argue that the Hebraist’s referential citation to Deuteronomy 32 actually shows not only God’s remedial intentions in the punishment but also a (pretty typical) prophetic promise that He’s succeed in the remediation, vindicating His rebel people. (Thus explaining what the Hebraist means in that related reference, too.)

Re: kolasis (and finally getting back to the main post topic :wink: ), the fact of the matter is that any such term despite its normal cultural reference could be used for either hopeful or hopeless punishment. (“Retribution” being an ironic example itself: is it supposed to mean returning rebels to loyal tribute, or making sure rebels never return to giving loyal tribute??)

The agricultural imagery which has been connected (rightly or wrongly) to kolasis does appear with some frequency in the NT in regard to eschatological discipline of rebels, but not always in fashions which intrinsically imply hopeful instead of hopeless punishment. The most important hopeful punishment usage of the imagery (not the term) seems to be Paul’s warning about being grafted in and out of the vine at Romans 11, and while that certainly includes evidence that such punishment is not necessarily hopeless it could still be construed to be possibly hopeless.

Moreover, NT authors (and Jesus for that matter) demonstrate a tendency to take cultural notions, phrases and terms, and apply them rather differently – perhaps appealing back to more basic ideas of the terms and reapplying the basic ideas. While it’s important to get a baseline for comparison, if possible, the baseline usage doesn’t necessarily dictate the meaning in a deductive fashion, but rather adds an important inductive evidence which could be overturned by combined weight of other evidence.

Anyway I’ve known about the fuzzy usage of kolasis as mentioned in the article for a while; and these factors are all together why I don’t press for a definite remedial intention for NT usage of the term simply from usage of the term itself. I only point out the term can demonstrably feature a hopeful punishment meaning. Thus I appeal for example to the narrative and thematic context of Matt 25’s judgment of the sheep and baby goats as the decisive evidence for what Jesus intended by its meaning, which various factors about {eonian} and {kolasis} happen to leave open for allowing a hopeful punishment interpretation.

Worth noting, the {epitimia} Paul mentions in 2 Cor 2:7 (which has sometimes traditionally been thought to refer to the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy from 1 Cor 5, someone who caused sorrow to all the Corinthian church which Paul is explicitly speaking circumspectly about), sounds a little like synagogue remedial action (though I can’t recall any direct statement in favor of such corporeal punishment in the NT, both inflicted by and suffered by Paul before and after becoming Christian), but is definitely not meant as hopeless punishment, for Paul goes on immediately to urge the Corinthians to reaffirm their love for the punished guy and to forgive and comfort him lest he be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow!

In other words, however far the punishment is going, and whatever the punishment is (which is apparently very strong, enough to feasibly risk being overwhelmed by excessive sorrow), make sure it doesn’t go too far into hopeless territory.

Also worth noting: Paul by reverse comparative contrast, essentially says that a hopeless punishment of whoever is being punished in 2 Cor 2:5-11 would be a device of Satan by which he would gain more control over them! :open_mouth:

You Corinthians aren’t ignorant of the devices of Satan, right? – so do the right thing and freely give joy and comfort to the guy, validating your love for him!