I think the idea of a pub church is a bit of a misnomer. I really did not think the pub meetings that I was part of were ‘Church’ as such in terms of a place of worship, sacrament etc. They were discussion groups (broadly religious discussions) and places of friendship and fellowship break-in down distinctions between the Church and the World, the sacred and the secular (and breaking down distinctions of hierarchy). I think I saw then more as akin to Jesus’ open table fellowship rather than a substitute for Church services (I still went to Church when attending these meetings - but not everyone who attended the meetings went to Church). 
The motive of pub church is very different from place to place. Some see it as a new way to attract crowds to the dwindling numbers of pew-sitters in conventional churches. Some see it as a way of reaching the disenfranchised and unique demographic. Some see it as a half-way house to get bigger numbers to traditional churches. Not all have the same vision or objective. It differs greatly from place to place. There are a few other examples to draw from.
In Australia, there is/was the Pub Church at the Great Northern Hotel in New Castle, NSW.
theherald.com.au/story/412776/church-in-a-pub-thats-the-spirit/
thegreatnorthern.com.au/the-tiki-bar.html
And also at New Castle:
http://www.soulcafe.com.au/Files/Graphics/Pub-Church-April-2013-A3.aspx?width=400&height=565
lifechurch.org.au/Pub-Church.aspx
In Texas, Boston and Las Vegas (of course) there are similar churches in pubs:
Note in the following picture that beer is the incentive to come to church 
In Thakeham, UK, you have a variation of church in a pub as a form of fellowship:
http://thakehamchurch.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452b9cf69e20162fbc8a537970d-800wi
thakehamchurch.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/06/church-in-the-p.html
I think, for me, it would completely depend on the purpose, vision and motive of the church. Being at a pub for its own sake is definitely not a lure for me (I don’t go to pubs). But if this was an opportunity to reach the unreachable, then I would look into it. A lot of pastors do outlandish things simply to become recognized and “famous”. I wouldn’t want to be involved in such self-promoting antics.
Steve
Cindy, you’re pretty close, I think. We’re probably closer to (B). Though we don’t have anything resembling a sermon (I’m actually quite strongly anti-sermons myself). It’s more of a conversation, even if it does involve a primary speaker. CafeChurch is not a halfway house. And it doesn’t try and seduce people into other churches with beer. CafeChurch is the church community for us — we share in fellowship (yes — with a pint or wine and a slice of pizza!), have communion/the eucharist, and participate in an expression of prayer. But it’s somewhat expected that you’re engaged with your faith (whatever that might or might not be) outside of Tuesdays too — no audits though. And there are a couple of other opportunities outside of the pub to get together and/or develop spiritually in different ways. There is only one other parishioner out of the twenty-ish regulars (that I’m aware of) who attends a Sunday church with some frequency. And though this wouldn’t ever be discouraged, it would probably be rude if people treated CafeChurch as merely a supplement to their regular “church life” — well, I would consider it rude anyway. Some people haven’t stepped into a Sunday Church for years — decades perhaps; maybe even never. Others have used CafeChurch to ease their way back into a more institutional church. It’s a fluctuating group, because it suits different people on different legs of their spiritual journey. As with most churches, sometimes people no longer need a particular church (or any church) and move on (whether it be high, low, institutional or emerging/emergent). It does take a very particular person to belong to our community. We’re not intentionally or formally exclusive, of course, but we probably wouldn’t be a great fit for ideologues, alcoholics or aggressive tee-totalists, social conservatives, strong biblical rationalists (like myself!), uncharitable evangelicals, strong denominationalists and young families. People tend to just move on when that happens. It would be somewhat impossible and counter-productive for CafeChurch to be all to all. Pub-churches are necessarily micro-churches, I think.
http://www.soulcafe.com.au/Files/Graphics/Pub-Church-April-2013-A3.aspx?width=400&height=565
[size=150]**WOW! MY FIRST GUESS WAS RIGHT AFTER ALL—THE GUESS THAT I THOUGHT WAS LUDICROUS!
I JUST DIDN’T THINK CHRISTIANS WOULD GO THAT FAR TO PREACH TO THE UNCHURCHED.
I WONDER IF ANYONE HAS STARTED A “BROTHEL CHURCH”.
I THINK I RECALL READING THAT THE C.O.G. HAD A PRACTICE CALLED “FLIRTY FISHING”
IN THE 1970s, A FORM OF EVANGELISTIC PROSTITUTION.**[/size]
Yeah. I have pretty strong reservations as well. It is a bit of a mixed message when the beer is used as bait.
Whilst I don’t think my own CafeChurch uses alcohol remotely like the above examples (honestly, much of those just look like high churches having beer), I don’t know how offering alcohol is akin to offering prostitution. I greatly admire tee-totalists (I have a “spiritual” connection to Straight Edge hardcore; my family and housemate is tee-totalist and so was Adin Ballou), but Jesus liked to party. And he liked to do so with an abundance of good wine. Let’s not get carried away with someone offering a pint with their sermon.
I will add that I’m not actually familiar with the term “pub church” within Christian circles. I do use the term amongst friends because it’s less esoteric than emerging/emergent. But to my mind a “pub church” would simply be any church that meets in a pub. If that’s what this thread is about, I’m not sure I actually have that much to say about it. In the church I’m a part of, the pub is certainly important, but it’s really only a relevant environment in which we’re trying to be a church in a post-Christendom world, it’s not the sum of our church experience.
Paidion,
I don’t have a lot of experience with pubs (or bars), but I think the image of a “pub” is a bit different from that of a bar. Around here (in west-central USA) a pub is usually a somewhat to very upscale restaurant where alcoholic beverages (often limited to beer and wine) are served prominently. People may come in for just a drink, but it’s more common to come for dinner or supper with or without the kiddos. Drunkenness isn’t an accepted part of the scenario. Smoking isn’t allowed (by state law here, but typically not welcomed before the law passed, either.) That said, I know absolutely nothing about pubs elsewhere.
I think a thread about whether or not it’s acceptable for Christians to drink alcohol would be a great discussion. It might be best to ignore the alcohol angle for the purposes of this discussion though, as lots of Christians don’t have a problem with drinking in moderation. I do have to say though that the idea of luring people in with free beer and food kind of rubs me the wrong way. If attendees want to buy a beer and a pizza, or even do so for someone else, I personally don’t have a problem with that, but the idea of the cutsie ads portraying the priest/minister serving the drinks doesn’t sit very well with me. From what Andrew says, I get the impression that’s not what’s being done in this case.
Andrew:
My guess is that the liberal (or conservative) bent of a group would only depend on the make up of the particular group. One group might be this way and another that way. Am I right, Andrew, or do you think this particular way of meeting is more workable for a liberal group?
Do you guys meet in a reserved room, or are you right out there on the dining floor? And if so, how does that work? Is your meeting obvious, or does it just look like a bunch of people eating more or less together? How would you describe a typical get together? How does it work?
Thanks!
Cindy
I gravitate more to the fellowship aspect of a pub church, rather than the hopes of getting a drink with the sermon. Although I do not object to drinking in moderation, I do not drink myself – and I doubt I will have much alcohol even when I could legally order it in an American pub.
So if I were to attend a pub church, I’d probably opt to munch on some fries or grab a cup of coffee. (I still like Steve’s idea of a McDonald’s church – and, hey, I’ve seen stranger things happen at McDonald’s. ) I don’t think the location of a pub church would really matter. For me, it is just refreshing to find a sanctuary with no set dogma, no set schedule, and no set leader (one of the reasons I rather like this place. 
)
Some of the more enlightening spiritual conversations I’ve had have taken place in a coffee house, or even at my home kitchen table, having a midnight snack with my mom. With these experiences in mind, I echo Cindy’s enthusiastic questions for Andrew regarding just how a pub church works.
Oh but Kate!! MacDonalds is SO NOT HIPSTER!!!
Just to add a little spice to the mix - my brother in law Stan is a minister who began his ‘career’ preaching in a --------- drive-in theater.
I am not making this up.
Sunday mornings, the congregation would drive in, park, pull that tinny speaker into the car, and then Stan would start the service. People were still in their jammies, or their hair in curlers, they would have a sausage Mcmuffin and coffee, the kids would be coloring in the back seat.
Now not to be harsh - how different is that than the ‘model’ of church, where the congregation all sit in lines of chairs, not looking at one another at all, but all facing forward toward the production up front? If there is a way to discourage interaction, this is that way. (Is interaction important?) Recognizing that, some churches have the 'stand up, find someone you don’t know, and give them a big christian hug". Somebody just shoot me. One man gave my wife such a christian hug that I almost knocked him on his christian ***. I made a scene, but I was younger then.
Just sayin’ - the “form” of ‘church’ does two things: reflects a groups’ theology, or imposes that theology tacitly. What are we trying to say when we line up like in a drive-in theater, what are we trying to say when we allow people to wear sleeveless t-shirts and gym shorts to church, with huge mugs of coffee in hand, standing and singing 30 choruses? Leaving 10 minutes for a sermonette? I’m not criticizing those things - just pointing out that the ‘form’ is an important indicator of the message, one way or the other.
Jesus ate and drank with sinners - that’s what bothered the Pharisees. He might even have made merry, and really driven them crazy.
The idea of ‘church’ and the form it takes will be something I’ll be thinking about. Maybe down at the pub. 
Precisely why a McDonald’s pub church would be ideal.
I remember Max Lucado, I think, wrote a wonderful bit about a laughing Jesus. I wish I could find it.
I would highly recommend a book called “Pub Theology” by Bryan Berghoef. You can read a shorter article on the concept by him here. When I read that article, I immediately bought the book, and as I was reading it I started talking to some friends about starting a group. We meet once a month right now (hopefully we will be expanding soon to more frequent meetings), and the whole idea is that all are welcome, and we will all explore questions together. Questions about philosophy, morality, theology, science, morality, beauty, etc. And honestly, I don’t do much to “lead” this group - I just try to put together a sheet of questions (I am always asking for suggestions, but I usually end up putting in a few of my own in order to pad out the list), and then I let the discussion go.
I remember the drive-in churches!!! I’d forgotten all about that, Dave. We had them in Florida, but I never went to any though I was curious. I had my mega-church with the 30 choruses x 7 that (I didn’t realize) created some kind of a crowd-high – the sort of high you also get from attending a good rock concert even if the gate-keeper confiscated your marijuana brownies. (I never went to many of THOSE concerts – my mom and dad seemed to think that was a bad idea. 
Anyway, I thought you and Kate might enjoy this video though perhaps it’s off topic – or maybe not – this is the sort of thing that the adverts made me think of, and as Andrew points out, this is not what his group is about. Still, the church in the USA gets up to this kind of crowd-pleasing tactic quite a lot.
That was an interesting - and provocative - article, thanks. Food for thought.
Oh hi, Geoff! Just clicking through to your article.
As to the ‘brothel churches’ mentioned above - that reminds me of the temple prostitutes I’ve read about (somewhere in the prophets?) - so it’s not a new idea. Still a bad one, though.
Loved the vid, Cindy. I sent it to my pastor who has a good sense of humor.
I think you may have misunderstood me here. I am not advocating avoidance of alcoholic beverages. I have drunk wine, rum and coke, and other such beverages occasionally since I was 19 (though not in bars or pubs, usually at home or with friends but occasionally in restaurants which serve such beverages).
Nor was I suggesting that offering alchohlic beverages is akin to offering prostitution. My point here arises from my observation of a slippery slope in attempts to bring a message to the unchurched. The first thing I noticed was a church in my locale which I used to attend, thinking if they built a larger, more attractive building, it would draw non-believers in. They constructed the new, beautiful building, but no greater number of people attended than previously. Next, I noticed a number of churches changed their meetings from what might be characterized as worshipful sessions where our Lord was adored and honoured, to places of entertainment with the expectation of drawing in outsiders so that they might hear the gospel message. At first this format did seem to draw a few in, but they didn’t stay long. Next, a local “Christian” radio station changed from broadcasting beautiful hymns of praise to a different kind of Christian singing, patterned after worldly songs. Unless I was able to comprehend the words (which was difficult since they were often sung in a manner which made them difficult to decipher), I could not distinguish these “Christian” songs from the wordly songs played on other stations. Presumably this style of song was mean to draw people into listening to this station and reach them with the message of the Christian words (if they could be understood). Now to my surprise, I find out that some pub churches offer beer in order to give people the message they want them to hear. Because all of this seems to be a slippery slope, catering more and more to serve the world with the things they already have and enjoy in order to give them a message. That is why I suggested that the next step might be offering them women.
And now I offer you my opinion on all of this. The worldly person who is interested chiefly in his pleasures, is not going to be interested in going to a church which offers the same pleasures but tempered down a bit. If this is what he’s after, he’ll get a better “quality” of it elsewhere. On the other hand, if he is a seeker after truth and reality, he is not going to be attracted to a place that practises and offers the same or similar pleasures that he’s always pursued. If he thinks there might be something in Christianity to help him with his problems, he is much more likely to be attracted to a church in which the people have risen above those things which he has been practising, and found a much greater joy through a relationship with the Lord.
Let me give you an example. There was a man in our community who was a good violinist. He used to play for dances. When he became a disciple of Christ, he was so completely devoted to his Master, that he never touched his violin again. Now I couldn’t understand this at the time. Why couldn’t he minister to his fellow Christians by playing Christian music with his violin? But his reason was that he didn’t want to be associated in any way with his former way of life.
Paidion, I’d agree with you (although I’m not sure about the violinist – that seems a shame – but he’s no doubt the best judge of what he should and shouldn’t do.) That said, the idea of offering beer, or even of offering food, as an enticement to hearing the gospel seems to me too, to be a losing proposition. If you watched the video I posted above, you’ve seen a parody of this – people offered everything by the church, demanding the church cater to their every wish, on their terms alone. Kind of the wrong approach to making disciples, and pretty much what you’ve said if I hear you right.
I don’t get the impression from Andrew that this is what his group is doing. The adverts posted were produced by other groups unconnected to Andrew’s group. He seems to have said to me that they simply want to meet in a neutral, non-threatening, friendly location so as to avoid the hesitation and intimidation a non-believer might feel in coming to a traditional church building, or even to the home of someone they don’t yet know – and to make congregating more of a conversation that includes and ideally is led by the Lord, than a show we attend as spectators. I can see that – though I see how it would be easy to step over the line and begin attempting to be an “attractionist” group. Jesus had a huge following after He fed the 5,000, and He appears to have intentionally driven them away with what was for them apparently, a VERY hard saying to understand. In addition, he accuses them of only following Him because He fed them the day before. I agree with you that trying to get followers by promising free stuff or by catering to their temporal desires would be/is a bad and an ineffective strategy.
I completely agree with your post, Paidion. It is a slippery slope indeed, and I don’t think many have the ability to pull this off without it falling into the hands of the enemy. I am very similar to your violinist friend. I played in bands when I was young, and I was a wizz at pop culture and music. I don’t pick up a guitar now, nor write, nor listen to secular music (nor most forms of “sacred” music). It is largely for the reasons you said, and it is also because I was using music typically: as a ‘healing of the soul’, as a crutch, a motivator, a theme for ambition and strength. I realized that music became a replacement of all the things that the Holy Spirit was offering me, and I could not serve two masters.
I was part of a church meeting of elders once, and the church went through a similar re-structuring to attract new members. The real motive of this “evangelism” came out - it was about saving church finances and assets. They decided to invest in renowned musicians moving to the church to attract the yuppy affluent of society to their church, and to disenfranchise the poor, as ‘they’ would only make the affluent feel uncomfortable. This was a real eye-opener for me. It started me to re-think the modern churches entirely. The modern churches are a economics trap. If they are not viable economically, they will not survive. This is part of the reason that the secular culture has been infused into the church - they need more money. They need to reduce debt, and they need to get rid of costly overheads.
The “public” churches are probably the only hope churches have left in the near future, as governments have realized that church finances are the achilles heel of all churches; but public gathering are also subject to the law in many places. That is one of the reasons churches needed to incorporate under the 501 tax, and to receive the number and name of the beast (so to speak) - the tax file number and business name. This goes back to the WW2 Malvern Conference; which was also a way for churches to operate on a similar scale as multi-national business. Like the multi-nationals and conglomerate supermarket chains - the smaller business cannot afford to operate, so they become absorbed into the larger machine, leaving only the larger corporations in the monopoly. Each church is now a business, and they are subject to business law. Each church competes against the other church for a slice of the business profit. If they don’t, they die! It is all economics. Time will tell where this will lead.
Steve