The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"Pub Churches"

Practices Church
#41

Hi all,
I’ve been following this thread with interest since starting it and you all have lots of interesting and wise perspectives on Pub churches. I especially appreciate Andrew and Dick sharing their personal experiences.

The concept certainly seems to be one that can be abused and is not for everyone—however, I continue to feel drawn to to the idea. Despite what I said earlier, it’s not really the idea of beer that’s appealing :smiley: , it’s the idea of stripping off the religious masks church-goers tend to put on when interacting in a traditional church—the idea of removing the accumulated religious “crust” of centuries that no longer holds its original significance and getting back to something approaching the early church, having honest discussions of spiritual/philosophical issues instead of sitting passively and being “fed”. Dave’s post about the lack of interest in traditional church is interesting and telling. I’m afraid I can identify with that closely but I would hope that ‘pub churches’ or ‘cafe churches’ would not be simply a “boys’ night out” type of thing. Not having to think about what you had to wear, not having to deal with phony smiles and greetings might appeal to both sexes. Also, I think this might make those of us who are introverts and deal best with smaller, more inmate groups more comfortable. (That’s me by the way :wink: )

I think Stef raises some good points about the financial implications of the traditional church model. The pub church model is certainly much cheaper and though a pastor/leader (if there was one) couldn’t make a living in this setting, the reduced demands on his time would allow him to have another job.

I suspect that a very popular pub church would have difficulty as it grew. Does the “congregation” buy its own place to meet? Does it start imposing some sort of statement of faith? Does it become a ‘cult of personality’ if the leader is especially eloquent and revered?

Anyway, those are some thoughts of mine and I’d welcome any comments.

#42

Thank goodness that the restraints you put on yourself, which are personal to you, are not binding on me; and vice-versa. I struggle with different demons than you do. So to speak…
It’s not as if there is only one lifestyle acceptable to God, right? Even Nicodemus saw that if something is from God, let it be, even if it makes you incredulous. If a pub group is not dishonoring God (getting high, whatever) and the good news is being shared, and the Spirit is present in love and conviction - I would not fight against it.
A man started a church out in the Applegate Valley, a few miles from here, years ago, in fact, hippies were alive and walking the earth. :smiley: It was not unusual for the congregation (very small at the time, and the meetings were outdoors) to show up in various sorts of dress and …undress. More than one sister, of a hot morning, would come topless or become topless during the sermon. One gal disrobed completely. Church went on, these people eventually changed - their clothing habits and their rather dissolute manner of living - and became true disciples. The church is still there, thriving, still meets outdoors and does discourage nekkidness on the church grounds. :smiley:

So a pub church seems pretty tame to me, and a good way to reach people. As long as the fruit of the Spirit is born and allowed to grow. The slippery slope can happen anywhere. We are surrounded by diversity, and trying to force unity is like trying to herd cats.

As for music, it can give a taste of heaven IMHO. God uses anything He can to persuade us or convict us - whatever it takes, and it is different for each person.

Don’t anyone say I’m misrepresenting them, ok? The above are my opinions, and are not meant to be caricatures of anyone.

#43

LOL. I lived in a hippy environment too. It didn’t quite get to disrobing, but plenty of pot smoking and bongo’s and banjo’s. I have grown up a bit now. So has everyone then involved. One of the pastors became super-conservative.

Damn it!

#44

Steve, I think you make a good point. The slippery slope IS everywhere. It CERTAINLY exists in the institutional church which (even it its more intimate incarnations) too easily becomes a cult of personality, and as Stef pointed out, is vulnerable to seeking funds (rather than seeking Jesus) simply in order to continue its existence. I don’t see meeting in a cafe or in a pub or in a city park, or any other reasonable place to be any more dangerous at all (and possibly less) than meeting in a building that most churches these days have a hard time maintaining and paying the mortgage on. Please no one misunderstand. I respect the IC and am well aware that such churches contribute greatly to ministry work. That said, I don’t think IC is superior to other forms of the church. It’s just one more way for the body of Christ to meet.

In the case of house churches, there’s a sort of enforced size limit. Most living rooms don’t hold more than a dozen or so people comfortably, and of course there are always the children to manage (who tend to significantly outnumber the adults). I’m guessing the pub church is also going to be limited in size and will need to split up if it gets above a couple dozen people. Plus, you limit yourself to people who can leave the kiddos with Grandma, or who haven’t got any yet, or empty-nesters (like me). I do agree there’s a danger (as there is in other settings) of the pub church becoming a cult of personality. It that were to happen, splitting into smaller groups would be more difficult because the driving force is the pastor/leader rather than the community dynamic under Christ as leader. I think the leader would need to begin immediately training a successor or two and giving them leadership responsibilities to avoid this sort of thing.

I want to do this! Only I don’t think I’m actually up to it. :frowning: I guess you just take the waves as they come, as in Perelandria. Who knows what’s over the next wave? :smiley:

#45

Very good advice, Cindy! :smiley: I think you’ll know when the right time is to start something like this. My suspicion is that it will be a ‘compulsion’ you can’t resist. :wink: I am also very excited about the idea of a ‘Pub’ or ‘Cafe’ church for the reasons I mentioned and the idea will keep percolating there in my mind until the situation is right to act on it.

#46

In this thread I’ve read several refences to “institutional churches” where people sit in rows a spectators, sing a few hymns, and listen to a sermon.The early church was much different from this. “When you come together,” wrote Paul to the Corinthians, “Each one has a hymn, a song, a teaching, a tongue…”, in other words, each person has something to contribute. (this is not a direct quote; it just sprung up in my memory). Yes, there were overseers (or elders) in a local church, and deacons (servers) as well. But the overseers didn’t do all the teaching. Others also exercised their gift of teaching. Every member of the body of Christ is a minister and a priest (but not all are overseers or deacons).

I have been in fellowship with several such expressions of the church of Christ. All of them are non-denominational and require no formal church membership (every member of the Body of Christ is recognized).

But maybe a discussion of church practice in general, belongs to a different thread.

#47

Hmm, yes – maybe it should have its own thread, Paidion. I do think it’s relevant to this thread, though. For me, the main thing is (as I’ve said) the fellowship and the ministry of every member in his/her gifts/functions. I’m thinking that pub/cafe/under-the-bridge churches will vary from an institutional church that takes place in a different setting to a bunch of guys and/or gals sitting around talking about life with a Christian twist to the conversation. I guess I’d like to find something in the middle.

#48

Hi Paidion,
You said:

This is exactly what my (admittedly idealized) vision of a ‘Pub’ or ‘Cafe’ church would be. As Cindy, mentioned, leaders would be necessary, but as Andrew say,'it’s more of a conversation". :smiley:

#49

My best church experience has been within house churches (as opposed to cell groups). They are undoubtedly the first NT churches which were reproduced, and they have such a family orientated and personal touch that make all others seem very ritualistic and out of place. That was my experience anyway.

“…greet the church that is in their house…”
Romans 16:5

“To Philemon our beloved brother and fellow worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier,
and to the church in your house…”
Philemon 1:2

#50

I like that idea of the house church. I’m going to look around for one in this area.

#51

Cindy, as an independent and quite unique congregation it would be difficult to know what another church of a similar approach might look like. But yes, it would depend on the congregation. I think conservatives could probably manage, as could liberals. We are “progressive”, neither conservative nor liberal (to my mind, the modern “progressives” are fairly close to classical liberal theology (as in classical American Unitarianism, minus the actual unitarianism — we’re moderately trinitarian in our liturgy, strongly trinitarian in theology). But we do have parishioners who are more evangelical too.

We usually have dinner at the table and our service in a room. I don’t think we call it a service though — we avoid most churchy words. Occasionally, if the room is booked, we have an altered service at the table — it’s usually too loud to have a proper conversation across the whole group in that area though. It probably looks like a bunch of friends to most people — we’re not there to evangelise. We spend about an hour in another room after dinner. Usually (via a portable projector) there is a Bible reading or song that’s mashed together with relevant paintings. And from then, someone (usually Alister) speaks on a particular topic. Discussion questions are frequent, and coffees, teas and hot chocolates are standard accompaniments. I think we have the Eucharist once a month. We often close the service with a short prayer.

Kate, Cindy is absolutely right — it’s nowhere near hipster enough! We’re actually moving our residence next year to Fitzroy, the epicentre of Melbourne hipsterdom. Haha… Meeting at McDonalds wouldn’t be very suitable in central Melbourne — the very idea makes me prickle! We’re pretty serious about good coffee here. And I’m not sure the McDonalds environment would be conducive to particularly good conversation. But organic congregations should suit the needs of their congregants, so it can be done.

Steve (alecforbes), I think you’ve summed up CafeChurch well. I still find the beer appealing — I love a good dark ale — but I’m there because I need authentic conversation with friends about life, suffering and God, without the crust. Of course, I’m not saying one doesn’t get that in an Institutional Church (is that the term we’re using?) — I attend both. CafeChurch even has a high feel to a couple aspects (we’re a tad catholic) and we are heavily rooted and engaged with many historic Christian traditions, whereas my Institutional Church is a very low church that skirts tradition.

I’m quite anxious, can be a bit moody and am introverted (though am not particularly shy) and I find CafeChurch a lovely fit (the vast majority of us are introverts — we all did a test on it once).

I’m not sure a Pub Church is particularly cheaper. Your congregation is necessarily limited in size (and thus dosh), and you might still have to pay a minister for a couple of days (if you offer pastoral care and want someone to prepare each service). Our church struggles financially. And though I don’t think CafeChurch could ever afford to buy a place, or would ever want to, I think it would radically detract from its purpose if we tried.

I first came to CafeChurch, amongst other reasons, because they didn’t impose a Statement of Faith. I can no longer assent to most (I am unitarian), and would have to leave if CafeChurch started to impose one (we’re trinitarian). I’m worried about this possibility (given a recent development), but knowing the entrenched spirit of our congregation, I can’t imagine that idea realistically being entertained.

#52

If you are interested, a good book to further understand the NT roots of the home church is by Robert Banks, The Church Comes Home.

http://static.booko.com.au/800/9781565631793.jpg

koorong.com/search/product/view.jhtml?code=0801045533

#53

Just what I was looking for! Thanks Steve.

#54

You might also want to check out some of Felicity and Tony Dale’s work, Dave. They might even be reasonably near you. I don’t remember where exactly they are, but you could easily find out – just google them. Felicity has a blog and she’ll respond to you. She is conditionalist – she and I had a long conversation about that – but she doesn’t seem to think I’m a heretic. :laughing: I told her that conditionalism just wasn’t good enough for Father. Maybe I planted a seed or two. You can no doubt find their books at Amazon.

#55

Hi Andrew,
Thanks again for your input. I forgot to ask in my last post, but was wondering about the gender ratio of those attending CafeChurch especially in light of the apparent female predominance in the ‘IC’?

#56

That was very helpful, Andrew! Thanks. :smiley:

And I could see a cafe church in one of those MacDonalds restaurants with the big play rooms. :laughing: Only there’s usually not very good seating in the playroom and it’s loud. Maybe the parents could take turns with the kiddies. You can’t be too picky when you have kids – they want what they want even if you are a hipster!

I like the idea of a guided conversation. That seems about right for me. Just letting things go wherever they will guarantees rabbit trails, especially amongst the men, and too many weeks of nothing but preaching is deadening imo. You can do that occasionally when someone has something important to share, but even then it might be good to allow for discussion during or after. One nice thing about the pub/cafe church would be that you could just order your meal. No one has to cook, so you have more time to prepare spiritually. Very good information, Andrew. Thanks again!

#57

Yeah, I have decided to re-visit the home-church also. There is none at all here in my city (that I have found); but I might be able to facilitate getting like minded people together.

Have a great day everyone. May God look over everyone in this blessed yet turbulent commemoration.

Stefcui

#58

Did I hear someone mention ‘flirty fishing’ and the Children of God. Och that takes me back – I remember them very well :confused: . They were actually a very authoritarian sect obsessed with biblical end times prophecy and were highly regarded by some for a while for their absolute commitment and biblical purity. But they were always authoritarian and this was always plain to see. Their leader at some point decided that women members should get male converts by sleeping with them and that sex and love were the same thing.

One of the best things about pub churches is that they have to be informal – everything happens in the open. This guards against authoritarianism (or at least it should do). Pub churches have often been a refugee for people coming out of cult like controlling churches. That was my experience of pub churches anyway – diffuse leadership and openness. Of course pub churches may become dysfunctional – but I think they are low risk regarding abuses of power because of their public and informal nature. :slight_smile:

#59

Steve, the gender ratio is probably very similar to ICs. I don’t think that problem (if one considers it a problem) being addressed by an emerging church. Ages vary fairly widely, extending from mid-twenties (I think I’m still the youngest), to middle-aged parishioners. We recently had a man in his 70s attend for quite some time. The mean is probably somewhere in the thirties, I suspect.

#60

Very interesting, Andrew, and a bit surprising as would have thought there might be either a male predominance or a fairly equal gender split.

Thanks again,
Steve