The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Purgatorial Hell and Evangelism (plus Near Death Experience)

Do you suppose that those who suffer from hell are being evangelized by the saints in Glory? It would seem in the case of the Rich Man in Luke 16, he was at least able to converse with Abraham will still in torment. It would seem to make sense that if a loved one winds up in hell to be inflicted with purgatorial punishment (i.e. the wrath of God upon him/her), then it’s possible for that one’s loved one in Glory could be of some encouragement to help him/her turn to Christ and eventual salvation. I know that if I died and someone I loved was in Hell, I’d try to do anything to evangelize them out of there.

Any thoughts on this?

Hi Dondi:

Allow me to say hi and welcome you to the site.

Boy – what a question!

For me, this represents a whole brave new world of thought. I was raised with the idea that final decisions occur before death and are irrevocable. UR (Universal Reconciliation: what others call simply “Universalism”) shatters that notion and has God not just waiting, but actively involved in convincing recalcitrant sinners to come back home. And He simply does not stop until the job is finished. I think we all agree that the victory of God, through Christ, is a TotalVictory and for me it would be obscene to call it “victory” while those I’ve loved (and it’s pretty obvious God has insisted he loves ALL) either remain in hell forever or are annihilated.

So, once one accepts that reality, it seems fair game to wonder how that is accomplished. Clearly not by force; it must be freely chosen. Will God then utilize us as His allies and cohorts in evangelizing and helping convince those who are undergoing “judgement”? (Interesting that you simply call it “purgatory”. One can easily see how this idea developed… though I’m not sure at all it is biblical…)

However, it seems axiomatic that it is in the very nature of those redeemed who now live in God’s very presence that they would be MORE than willing to share the Good News about God and, if called upon, to evangelize this message. Which is to merely say that we simply reflect the great heart of God toward all those who have not yet “come home”.

How all this works out – ? – I have no idea!!!

I might add here that I cling to this idea – call it silly if you will – that we earthlings will, because of our unique history and perspective, have a very special ambassadorial role for eternity.
I’m actually looking forward to that – and am not unaware that the training for such a task begins right here and now!!

TotalVictory
Bobx3

I wouldn’t press the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus very far in any direction, beyond affirming a coming punishment; it’s a parable, so it has limited application beyond its immediate purposes.

I do have to note that Abraham doesn’t seem all that interested in evangelizing the Rich Man. (If anything, the Rich Man is interested in evangelizing his brothers!) A much better ‘purgatorial hell and evangelism’ scene is at the end of RevJohn.

On the other hand, I think it’s interesting, whenever I read Dorothy Sayers’ fine 12-play epic The Man Born To Be King, that she (a Roman Catholic apologist) has someone in Jesus’ audience calling attention to the fact that the Rich Man is becoming a better person! (Which she then has Christ cautiously agree about: a little better. :mrgreen: )

I only use purgatorial hell for lack of a better term. Of course, it is dependent on the cooperation of the one being purged. Love has a lot of work to do on some folks.

I get that impression, also. I mean, what else will we be doing?

I wasn’t trying to establish doctrine from that parable, only gleening possibilities. But at least Abraham informed him of the reason he is in that predicament, which is usually the first step in evangelism. :smiley:

True! :smiley:

Agreed. I think the main purpose of the parable is to show our earhly responsibility to the poor & downtrodden, as in how the Rich Man walked right by the poor man, who was so weak he couldn’t even fend off the dogs from licking his sores. Like Greg Boyd said in his sermon on the RM&L, there is a main point to a parable, and everything else is a prop.

I think focusing on the props leads to a lot of wild speculation.

Well, at the very least ECTers trying to appeal to that parable for their position will quickly be put up to having the Rich Man being apart from the presence of the omnipresent God and yet able to communicate with Abraham. (Wow, Abraham is more omnipresent than God, huh. Except not totally omnipresent either, since although he can communicate with the Rich Man he can’t reach him to bring him any water.)

For ECTers who affirm the presence of God in hades/Gehenna (and this is pretty clearly Gehenna, too), this won’t be so much of a problem (they can affirm that the fire is the Holy Spirit, just like most of us universalists for example), but they still have the goofiness of Abraham being able to communicate across an apparently incommunicable divider.

The study in Near Death Experiences has been very helpful. In the accounts I have come across, a common theme is it is the will of the person in a ’ purgatory state ’ . Those who have escaped have had some knowledge of light ( Christ) given to them as children or adults and while in a darkned state they call upon Christ, He has shown to be Merciful and removes them, when they turn to Him for help. This is why I believe it is very important than we ’ evangelize ’ while here on earth, the best way to escape hell is to accept a pardon now, but it is still going to be a matter of our will the length and duration of how long we remain in ’ afterlife darkness '…see near-death.com for more accounts of those who have experienced escape from the pits to correct and restore us back to God’s light and love.

I am quite familiar with the near-death.com site. And actually there was one NDE that particularly impressed me, that of Howard Storm. In his book, “My Descent into Death”, the former athiest describes how died and found himself with demonic-like creatures who inticed him and did all kinds of nasty things while in his incorproal state. But that he actually got ‘saved’ during his NDE, by reaching way back into his past and remembering some rudimentary prayers from his childhood days after being instructed to ‘pray to God’. From there, he just started crying out to God and eventually brought into the ‘light’, whilst the devilish imps went away. It seems any sliver of knowledge about God is sufficient to bring hope to those in despair, even beyond the grave. Later, it was revealed that a woman he knew had been praying for something like 14 years for his salvation (which seems to stress the importance of prayer in the salvation of loved ones). But Storm was convinced that if he hadn’t reached out to God, he would have been lost forever. A great read, BTW. One of the things that impressed me was that while he was conversing with angelic beings, he asked which is the best religion, and the reply he received is, “The best religion is the one that brings you closest to God”.

At any rate, I take NDEs with a certain amount of caution. I would like to see more empirical evidence. There is a study currently going on somewhere that will attempt validate NDEs, by setting up conditions that will ensure that the subject could have no knowledge of certain things prior to the NDE that if the subject could verify that knowledge would lend more credence to NDEs. One test is to place simple words, sentences, or symbols in operating rooms high above and out of view of the patient, like in above lighting, with the assumption that if a person finds themselves looking ‘down’ at themselves from high above the room during a NDE, they would presumable also see the high-hidden placecards with the words and symbols as well. I’d really like to see some positive results from this.

There actually are some NDE’s where conditions like those you described exist. People who have been blind from birth, for example, describing things in detail that they saw on earth while in the out of body state, later to be confirmed by the Doctors working on them. There is no way that they could have known what certain medical instruments looked like, for example, let alone be able to describe them in detail once they came back from physical death.

That said, I share your sentiment regarding taking them with a grain of salt. We don’t really know for sure what’s going on in these near-death (or actual death) states; and the experiences, while often very similar, are also often heavily colored by beliefs held prior to the experience. Some people experience “hell”-like or “scary NDE’s”, while others have no experience like that. It seems that many of those who believed in hell experienced something like hell in their NDE’s, while many who did not believe in it, didn’t. Of course the opposite has also been true in some cases, such as Howard Storm’s (although it’s possible he may have had a latent hell-belief left over from his youth). The other thing that bothers me is that some things in some of the reports seem very difficult if not impossible to justify biblically, such as the common theme of reincarnation or reincarnation-like events, past lives, and so on. They use some questionable verses to attempt to justify these things.

[Updated 5/13/11. I’m more skeptical of NDEs than I was a few years back. I still think that the survivalist interpretation is currently the best fit, but I’m nowhere near 100% confident.]

There several helpful resources out there. I recommend these sources (among others):

  • Carter, C. Science and the Near Death Experience (2010). My Amazon review can be found at the following URL: amazon.com/review/RHBCORMXC5 … &linkCode=

  • Kelly and Kelly et al (2007). Irreducible Mind. This is a very thorough book on the nature of mind and how to best describe it. They talk about NDEs, psychical research, and other areas. Note: This book is not the best overview of parapsychology. For the best treatments on parapsychology, I recommend other sources, including Dean Radin’s two books (his 1997 “Conscious Universe”, which was re-released as “Noetic Universe”, and his 2006 “Entangled Minds”) and Chris Carter’s 2007 book (“Parapsychology and the Skeptics”), among others.

  • Atwater, PMH. Complete Idiot’s Guide to Near Death Experiences. I don’t know about her other books, but this one is a very helpful guide with pretty good rebuttals to the standard skeptical dismissals, although it is also the least referenced out of the ones I’m recommending.

  • Braude, S (2003). Immortal Remains. He doesn’t make much use of NDEs, but he talks about mediums.

I would also include the work of the British and American Societies for Psychical Research (BSPR and ASPR), particularly their work on the trance medium Leonora Piper (for more on Piper, go to tacoseasoning.blogspot.com/2011/ … s-and.html)

In general, NDEs and medium research do not support eternal damnation, but strongly suggest universalism (in some cases via postmortem corrections). It should also be noted that atheists are just as likely as Christians to have heavenly NDEs, and Christians are just as likely to have adverse NDEs. The person’s religious beliefs play little role in whether the experience is blissful, though the majority of NDEs (in both atheists and believers alike) are either blissful or benign.

I should say that I’m not as confident as I used to be, and am actually hesitant to interpret NDEs ad evidence of postmortem survival. However, I do lean in that direction because I think it’s currently the best interpretation. Of course, like many others, I wish the NDE evidence were stronger. (I’m a major parapsychology buff. I wish the NDE data were as well collected as data in other “survival” areas)

So, here’s a brief outline of why I lean towards the interpretation given by most NDErs themselves:

a) This first argument boils down to subjective experiences, but it’s worth noting. Cardiac arrest destroys all measurable EEG activity between 10 and 20 seconds after onset. EEG activity is abolished because cardiac arrest causes a massive decrease in the flow of blood, oxygen, and nutrients. And yet NDEs after the onset of cardiac arrest often include a dramatic increase in cognition – in the speed and quality of thoughts, in control over one’s thoughts, in memory, in visual and auditory acuity, and in the “feeling” of reality itself (i.e. the experience is often “more real” than ordinary waking reality). Why should we expect that to be produced by a fraction of brain activity? Even if future research finds left-over brain activity beyond 10-20 seconds after cardiac arrest onset, it’s not clear that such a finding would support the skeptical position. The question is why a fraction of brain activity after cardiac arrest would increase cognition. On the contrary, this makes sense if the brain receives/filters/constrains an already-existing mind, which in turn experiences one layer of reality through the medium of the brain.

b) Moreover, cardiac arrest NDErs are able to describe the details of their own resuscitations more accurately than cardiac arrest victims who lack an NDE, and some of those cases also involve the dramatic increase in cognition I mentioned above. So not only are they accurately describing things that occurred during a period of flat EEGs, but they also had increased cognition at a time of flat EEGs. (There’s some debate about whether heart massage was causing some continued brain circulation in those cases, which then caused the experiences and sensory perception.)

c) There are some thought-provoking veridical NDEs – i.e. accurate and corroborated observation by NDErs at a time when they shouldn’t be able to hear/see things. I don’t want to turn this into a lengthy debate, so I encourage people to read the sources I listed (if only one, then Carter’s 2010 book). But those that are worth considering are the “missing dentures” case, the Pam Reynolds case, the “flapping his arms” case, and several others. People on both sides of the debate have mischaracterized those cases. But when all of the mistakes are corrected, I believe that those cases are more suggestive than not (although not proof) of postmortem survival.

[Note: There are other cases that may sound more impressive, but they generally have even less external verification. For example, NDEers sometimes encounter loved ones on the “other side” that they think is still alive. So for example, Bill has an NDE and encounters his loved one Dan. Bill gets revived and tells his family “I saw Dan”, and they reply, “well Dan is still alive”. But then they discover that Dan had died shortly before Bill’s NDE. This also happens with pets (NDErs encounter their pets that they think are still alive, but which died relatively shortly before the NDE). These particular examples have not yet been thoroughly documented and remain anecdotal.]

d) It seems to me that all of the models proposed by skeptics have failed. Again, I refer the reader to Carter’s (2010 easy-to-follow summaries. Until Carter’s book came out, I recommended the 2007 book “Irreducible Mind” by Kelly and Kelly et al., which offers a good case for the “transcendental” interpretation of NDEs. But that book is too dry. Carter’s book is more reader friendly.

I readily grant that we need more NDE data. I may end up changing my mind. We need more data. I’ll never object to additional research.

  • Pat

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I suspect it would have more to do with the ‘quality of life’ a person has had at the time of the NDE. That is, if a person, whether an athiest or Christian, has had a life that exhibited qualities and characteristics consistent to that kind God is looking for (i.e they were kind, loving, patient, forgiving, etc), then they are more apt to have a positive experience. Whereas if the person exhibited selfish qualities (i.e. malice, unforgiving, conceit, etc.), then they would have a more negative experience. The common trend is that those coming out of an NDE, regardless of type, seemed to respond positively in light of their experience, with most not fearing death and becoming more concerned and aware for the needs for others. There are exceptions, of course; some do respond negatively, but that seems a rare occurence.

apologetics315.blogspot.com/2009 … e-for.html

Dr. Gary Habermas , a Christian apologist has some good studies on the Near death experiences. His focus is more so on those who can recall events that happened while the patient was seeing things at their home while they were in the hospital. His conclusion is that they could not know they details such as what their family was having for dinner or what time they went to bed. A link at the top has more info. in his conclusions and study.

Note: I’ve updated the thread’s title to reference this interesting topical extension! :slight_smile:

Yeah, Kav. Those are the conclusions that I also reached after reading lots of NDE accounts. I’ve been fascinated with them for a few years now, particularly so since realizing universalism about 3 years ago.