The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Purgatory and C.S.Lewis

Theology Soteriology
#1

There is an interesting discussion on Purgatory and C.S.Lewis believing in such on Jesus Creed (patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2012/04/04/c-s-lewis-and-mere-purgatory/#comment-294881). I weighed into the discussion with the following.

I too believe there is biblical evidence for post mortem remedial purification, some type of purgatory where we all encounter the fire of truth and it burns the hell out of us. We must face the truth concerning our lives, how we’ve actually lived, so as to repent and recieve forgiveness. This is what I believe judgment is all about, not separating the saved from the unsaved, but separating our good actions and attitudes from our bad actions and attitudes so that we might be fully reconciled to God. This is what the “day” of judgment is all about. For some that “day” might go on a long time, for others it will be relatively short. And I believe that God in judgment takes all things into consideration, brings all things to light, even whether we’re rich or poor as in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

Those of us who are privaledged to have the Lord revealed to us in this life begin experiencing judgment in this life and repent, embracing the life and forgiveness of God. Tears, weeping in repentance, grinding of teeth in regret are natural byproducts of experiencing judgment. Many scriptures link judgment and salvation. I especially appreciate Isa.57:16-19.

16 I will not accuse you forever.
I will not be angry with you forever.
Otherwise, the spirits, the lives of those I’ve made,
would grow faint in my presence.
17 I was angry because of their sinful greed,
so I punished them, hid from them, and remained angry.
But they continued to be sinful.
18 I’ve seen their sinful ways, but I’ll heal them.
I’ll guide them and give them rest.
I’ll comfort them and their mourners.
19 I’ll create praise on their lips:
“Perfect peace to those both far and near.”
“I’ll heal them,” says the LORD.

Salvation is a work of God in our hearts. It is He that gives us new hearts, creates praise on our lips. It is He that saves us, not we ourselves!

God does not stay angry forever, but delights to show mercy! Weeping my last for the night, but there is joy in the morning!

The passages on judgment give me great hope for all humanity, even me; but they also scare the hell out of me! In the light of judgment let us live passionately loving God and loving people!

#2

Yes, I saw this on Nick’s updates to the blog posts. I commented in that thread that I was surprised that given this, Lewis couldn’t take the next logical step to universalism, though I believe it had to do with his putting a bit too much stock in human freedom.
While I do believe that we have a measure of freedom, that ultimately God’s sovereignty outweighs or overcomes this.

#3

My pastor believes in ECT and teaches verse by verse thru the Bible. Everytime we come to the scripture that reads “Saved though as by fire”, he always says something like “Ha ha ha this is why the Catholics believe in purgatory. Ha ha ha what a flimsy scripture to base a whole doctrine on, ha ha ha they are so deceived.” Yet, he offers NO TEACHING AS TO WHAT IT ACTUALLY MIGHT MEAN not even a thought. Just bashes Catholics and moves on as though he actually taught something. Sometimes sitting in church just surreal.

#4

Oh, I hear you sass. Just last Sunday, our pastor was covering some material in John, and we came to the verse where Jesus says “if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to me”. He actually came out and said, “Does that mean everyone will be saved? No…” He then pointed to the next verse (of which it is doubtful it was even in the original script) that the entire verse was merely about the type of death he would die.

Granted, I know you can’t pull any doctrine (one way or another) from a single verse, but give me a break…what a red herring.

#5

IT’S HORRIBLE! I don’t know if you are familiar, but it reminds me of a show called “Mystery Science Theater”. These aliens would watch a really bad, cheesy sci-fi movie and make comments about how bad the movie was. That’s what church feels like…But not as funny… :wink:

#6

Tradition is so very powerful, and few people change from the religion in which they are born and raised. And fewer still Christians change from the church doctrine in which they are spiritually born and raised. And the doctrine of Hell has been taught for so long and by so many people and is so foundational that few Christians are willing to reconsider it, especially if they are over 40. Thus most pastors and theologians are unwilling to seriously consider the evidence against ECT, much less for UR. And Purgatory or remedial punishment is not even on the horizon of consideration.

#7

On Jesus Creed, what suprises me is the relatively very few pastors and theologians who will discuss or consider the concept of remedial punishment. They are fine with endless punishment for “others”, but will not even consider remedial punishment for “me”! That’s one reason I like to highlight that when I study the passages on judgment they give me great hope for everyone because of their often remedial tendencies and being addressed to believers, but they also scare the hell out of me because I’m a believer. By interpreting the passages on judgment as being God separating saved and unsaved it nullifies thier power to call anyone to repentance. Believers ignore them thinking, “These do not apply to me because I’m saved.” And unbelievers ignore them because, well, they do not believe! So no one who views these passages from the traditional perspective allows the fear of the Lord to change them! I’m reminded of what Jesus said, “Your traditions nullify the power of the word of God!”

#8

I guess I’m (relatively) happier when they simply skip over the verses and don’t even try to make any sense of them. Up until last year I don’t think I ever heard any teacher or preacher at any church I attended (or in any general purpose commentary I ever read) try to talk about Mark 9:49-50, although you could hardly get them to stop talking (mournfully or with warning triumphancy) about the verses immediately preceding it. My current Sunday School teacher last year was going to skip right past it; the (very general purpose) commentary he was working from hilariously treated verses 49-50 as though they had precisely no connection at all with the verses immediately preceding–which the author had to do because he acknowledged that the verses were definitely talking about people who would be saved. In his mind the verses were talking about being salted with the fire of persecution. The author didn’t bother to even try commenting on “therefore have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another” (which I thought was strange, but I guess dealing with that fraction of a verse would have blown his theory that the fire was persecution.)

#9

Yes, I own all the MST3K. ALLLLL OFFFF THEEMMMMM!!!

I still talk of Richard Dawkins’ fluky biological apologetics as Mr. D Science Theater 3000. But to be fair there is a lot of Mystery Says-so Theology 3000 out on the market, too.

#10

That was his attempt at rationalizing why God would give up eventually, yes, despite his insistences elsewhere that God wouldn’t give up until He got it done, and if we expected less we were asking for less love not for more. This was one of the few places he was wildly inconsistent in his logic.

But he thought something had to be tried, because he thought Jesus testified in various places to hopeless punishment of one or another kind. Lewis worked as hard as he thought he feasibly could to mod that; but he also wanted to be faithful to what he thought Christ had taught (including elsewhere by inspiration outside the Gospels.)

#11

Mystery Says-so Theology 3000… I love it :laughing:

#12

Sherman said:

IMO, Sherm, the pastors have a problem to begin with, since the modern day office of pastor is itself not scriptural. I’m sure most of them are wonderful sincere brothers and sisters who truly feel God has called them to their office (and maybe He has), but it still isn’t scriptural. I’m reading through this thread and thinking how much less frustrating if we were to simply get together as brothers and sisters in Jesus, in a situation in which everyone gets to gently and lovingly share what the Spirit has given them. Less heresy – far less, and certainly not more.

Blessings, Cindy

#13

Well, amen to that!

The modern office is not scriptural, nor is the forced theological binding of these pastors by the denominational statements of faith which effectively require them to abandon their posts should their theological consciences shift from what they are required to believe by the institution. Yet another impediment to shifting away from these doctrinal positions.

#14

Very much so . . . and because of this and other things, not only is the body of Christ prevented from speaking up when we see something amiss, and discussing it as equal members under the guidance of our Head, Jesus, the human authority of each ekklesia is also hobbled in the face of whatever the higher-ups from afar might legislate. Jesus Christ is no longer permitted to interact directly with His body. Sounds like some kind of SF horror scenario. Unqualified authorities have taken control of Christ’s body, causing it to do things He has neither desired nor asked it to do. No matter how well-meaning or godly the men in charge, no one should be able to control the body but the Head.

#15

A M E N
A M E N
A M E N

#16

Hi Cindy, I too am seeing more every day the importance of an organic, relational foundation of the church and tiring of the corporate business approach the church has fallen into. And I’ve thought long on what the “biblical” approach to church organization might be. The church I was raised in was against creeds, statements of faith, any formal denominational heirarchy outside the local church, and believed in multiple elder leadership in the local church, not senior pastoral leadership. Since then I’ve been involved in churches with a variety of organizational structures. And I’ve come to the belief that scripture does not specify a specific organizational structure for either the local church or more encompassing. I think the Lord left that up to us and inspires different groups to organize in different ways. Thus I value the relational strengths of the small home churches, but I also value the potential positive social/cultural influence that the larger organizations can have.

Personally, I’d love to be part of a fellowship of home fellowships, a fellowship that was relational, loosely organized, where loving God and loving people was enough, that met in various settings with various types of services, with multiple leadership, a fellowship that was truly transethnic, transdenominational, transgenerational, and transgenderational (men and women recognized as leaders, not the other thing). We’d meet weekly or more often in homes, and in larger gatherings in other venues (schools, community centers, hotel conf. rooms, etc.) as desired, maybe once or twice a month. And the gatherings could be open to being different each time, with different formats and speakers. I think it would be a vibrant, fun, loving atmosphere that would be focused on empowering people to love God and love others. I have a dream!

#17

Things are starting to move this way for a variety of reasons. It’s interesting thought that our pastor has been talking for years about how the worlds systems have infiltrated the church, yet even being aware of it, he cannot see how bound he still is by the very things he’s been speaking against. It is clearly a huge stronghold. I am beginning to form the opinion that the problems of the institutional church will not be able to be undone from within the institution, no matter how aware and well-meaning its members.

#18

Yes, and Jesus said that one should not pour new wine into old wine skins, unless you burst the skin and loose the new wine. On the other hand I see the body of Christ as having multiple parts - bones, muscles, and sinew. Bones by their very nature are stif and unyielding, muscles change all the time, and sinew (tendons and ligaments) help it all work together. Sinew is tough as bone and yet as flexible as muscle!