Which is actually a point that I thought about inserting myself, but forgot about it before finishing the post. So thanks for pointing that out and reminding me (us)!
Dave,
I respectfully but strongly disagree. Jesus was constantly using analogies from the everyday things around us to teach us about the Father and the Kingdom. In fact, I think that many things in this creation (metamorphic properties of the butterfly) are built in pointers to a deeper reality. I think this is part and parcel of how God communicates to us. His condescension to us on our level. The whole incarnation was a condescension (using this term positively) to us. Now these analogies/metaphors are always limited. They are hints and pointers but they are limited. We do see through a glass darkly.
As your last statement indicates; there may be a middle ground here. I personally see the pointers to a deeper reality as well, but I have to keep in mind that the deeper reality is so much more than the pointer.
Bob,
To clarify, I observe that right now God does not prevent suffering. Tragedy and injustice happens now. However I hope and believe that one day God will make things right. That is why I said “I don’t believe that God lacks the ability to redemptively bring victory. I’m counting in it in fact”
There is a difference between the way things are now, and the way they will be in heaven when “all things are made new.” That is a pretty common Christian position I think. I’m pretty traditional on this point.
Dave
I was about to respond in the same way when I saw what you had written, so I’ll respond to you instead.
Absolutely! I’m glad you pointed that out. Jesus is the plumbline that shows us how God does things.
Jesus’s healings were complete, immediate, and without any downside for the person on the healing end. No rehabilitation was needed, no convalescence, no need to take it easy.
In some cases, the only way Jesus could heal someone was to make it as though the person had never been sick or disabled. For example, after we are born we only have a few weeks or months at most while our brains are pliable enough to learn to make sense of the optical signals from our eyes: if we are blind during that short window, no amount of repairing the eyes or optical nerve will make us see. Yet Jesus gave sight to a man who had been born blind: it was as though he had never been blind – retrospective healing, if you like.
When you are healed right back to the beginning of your existence, you are whole – completely whole. Nothing further is needed.
And that’s how it will be with the new birth of the whole creation, what we call resurrection: it will be as though the creation never was sick or damaged.
Caleb,
If you would have completed my quote instead of taking a snippet out of context you would see how I specifically meant that statement to be understood. I was specifically addressing how using our common experience of sickness and treatment through modern medicine with all its limitations does not tell us how God with all the infinite resources of his life energy heals us. It is like comparing a candle to all the stars in the universe. Medicine is more about attempting a cure by treating a specific complaint and fixing it, healing is about restoring the whole person to wholeness far beyond a mere cure.
That is what I meant by the new creation being utterly different, not that it bears no resemblance to the current creation but is reborn as a new creation filled with the full living presence of the creator who makes alive all things in a way that surpasses all previous expressions of life. Resurrection is a very radical event. It is not an evolutionary or incremental process. It is a quantum leap, an act of creation. That which was once one dead is alive again, and not just alive as it was before death, but alive in a new hyper-physical way that was not possible before. Resurrection is healing writ large, the healing of the whole cosmos.
Thanks 
I was afraid you might miss it in the cascade of posts. 
Guess you’re a popular guy here. 
I just started reading your book yesterday, and am a couple chapters in, and it’s very encouraging and thought-provoking thus far.
I’ll let you know what I think of the whole thing when I’m done.
I actually just finished reading through the whole thread, so I’m all caught up, and I must say, there is a lot to think about here, a lot of different perspectives on things.
One thing I do want to say to Jason and Gene and Bob (with all respect to you guys, and I can see that you guys are being gracious, despite you’re maybe being a little frustrated, which I think is awesome ) in your defense here though, and in Dave’s defense as well, is that we all have to keep in mind that we’re all human here, and sometimes we can be inconsistent in either our thinking or how we express our thinking, and we’re all in the process of trying to understand the reality in which we live, experimenting with different ideas and concepts, and we come to this discussion with our own unique life experience and experiences, with our own unique personalities, hopes and dreams, fears and doubts, our own abilities and shortcomings, and this may include our saying one thing and then saying another thing, not always being able to articulate perfectly where we’re coming from, what we’re thinking, what we’re feeling, what we believe and all of that…
So, in other words, we should try to cut one another some slack here, because none of us are gonna be able to touch on every point and answer every question and make everything abundantly clear, because we’re not omniscient, and we don’t have all the answers, and this is more about faith than sight anyway…
I’d love it if you could give an in-depth response to my comment, Derek, as that would make me feel special ( ) but I for one, if I were you bro, would have a hard time keeping up with all the fan mail.
So if you’re inconsistent at all in any regard in your thinking or in how you express your thinking, or if anyone else is here, I’m not gonna knock on it, because I know I am for sure at times, if not most of the time.
I think the important thing here is that we can all be in a place, in our hearts and our minds, where we are able to trust God… trust that God does indeed know what He’s doing, trust Him with our hearts, our lives, our future, and the future of the world… and I would say that if any traditional teaching, like eternal torment, or penal substitution, or what have you, troubles us intensely enough to the point where we can’t have that trust, then we shouldn’t be afraid to question those teachings, and re-examine things, so we can come to a place of trust in our hearts and in our lives…
After all, Jesus said the truth would set us free… so I’m guessing that if what we think the truth is, what we’ve been taught to be ‘the truth’, or however we’ve picked it up and got it into our heads, is really bothering us and getting us down and leaving us in chains of fear or doubt or confusion or despair or all of the above, then either we’re not getting it or it’s just plain wrong altogether, and something else entirely is true, perhaps even the opposite thing, or something we could never guess, but is massively freeing…
Whether everyone here agrees with you on every point or not, I think we can all agree that your aim, which is stated in your book’s title, Healing The Gospel, is very meaningful and very much needed… the fact is, the ‘gospel’ as it has been taught to many is just not very good news, and binds people more than it frees them…
I know from experience that a lot of the stuff out there that people are selling as ‘good news’ and ‘freedom’ and ‘truth’ is really the kind of stuff that, if you really thought deeply about it, would have the potential of driving you mad and maybe even driving you into despair to the point of wanting to kill yourself, though most don’t reflect so deeply, which may in some sense be a blessing, because going mad or getting massively depressed is something that most would agree is best avoided, though some, like myself, have not always avoided it…
Though of course, my hope is that rather than just blindly accepting things that crush your soul, there would be more and more people like myself who would find that it’s okay to say no, it’s okay to question and re-examine, it’s okay to listen to those cries of your heart and rise up and say ‘there’s something wrong with this, and I won’t have it!’, and it’s okay to disagree with tradition, or with what’s popular or widely accepted…
I do hope that more and more people out there who have grown up in strict religious environments and the like who do struggle with things like this would come to that realization…
So, in short, I appreciate what you’re trying to do, Derek. Even if you weren’t perfect or entirely consistent in your arguments, or there were a few errors here and there, as would be the case with any of us, your aim is noble and true, and much needed and much appreciated.
People need hope, and they need to be able to see that God is good and trustworthy and just and true, in a way that speaks to the core of their being and who they are, and helps them to live and to love and know that they’re not alone, or at least helps them to get out of bed in the morning (or in the afternoon, in my case )…
With all that said, a couple more points:
I don’t think this point has been brought up yet, but we do have to keep in mind that, even in the analogy of children and parents, that every child is different, and has a different level of sensitivity, so when it comes to discipline and correction, one’s approach shouldn’t be the same with every child… I’m not a parent myself yet, but I’m sure that all parents would agree here, that you can’t always deal with each individual child in the same way…
And I think the same is true in the case of God and people, whether we’re talking about people as God’s children or whether we’re just talking about ‘the wicked’ (by the way, doesn’t wicked mean something like twisted? I figured that wicked and wicker, as in wicker basket, are related, so… anyways, if so, then perhaps ‘punishing the wicked’ could be nothing more than just unraveling the twisted mess and then restoring it, making it new, eh? )…
For one, we can keep in mind things like ‘God disciplines those whom He loves’ and ‘God takes no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked’…
And then it may well be that God does, and will, deal with each and every one of us differently… because, presumably, being our Creator, God knows us better than we know ourselves, so He would know how to deal with us, how to heal us, and set us free, and restore us…
And this also comes back to the whole power thing…
I do believe that God is not only all-loving, but also all-powerful, or infinitely powerful, and I don’t think that Derek or Dave are denying that God is like that, but I believe they’re both saying, in maybe slightly different ways, that God exercises power in a different way than we might expect… not like some Olympian deity on high, not from outside, but from below, from the bottom up, from within…
In other words, the God revealed in Jesus would be more like Atlas, lifting up the world on His shoulders, than Zeus on high, throwing down lightning bolts…
That reminds me of this beautiful poem by Edwin Markham, called The Nail Torn God:
(I’m guessing you’ll dig that poem, Dave )
Awesome thought here, bro I had a similar thought elsewhere on the forum that you might want to check out:
evangelicaluniversalist.com/foru … 483#p48872
That is so beautiful, Cindy. I’ve had similar experiences, and I know others who have as well… maybe that’s a sign that God really is with us always, even in our deepest pain, and even shares with us in the ups and downs of our lives… in other words, we’re not alone!
Well, I think that’s all for now… gotta get ready to go to work here guys, gotta go clean some toilets and mop some floors.
Great thread here guys, a lot of thought-provoking and even soul-stirring stuff here… let’s keep it up!
Blessings to you all and peace
Matt
I dig it a lot! Thanks for posting it here Matt. 
Dave
Apologies, Dave, if I misrepresented your scope. I actually do love your perspective. You speak in a powerful way that communicates the new creation in words that is very refreshing.
Caleb
Matt,
Yes! Since you seem to like poems, here’s one about questioning:
Pagan Wings
*Why have you cast us here so stranded,
Logged in the swallows of regret
Shot down by grief and empty handed,
Shouldering our souls with debt?
Why have you not broke down the silence,
And spoke with your celestial tongue?
We’ve called to you with inner violence,
You’ve left the snares we’ve set unsprung
If our hearts are choked with evil
Why refuse to heal us now?
If you’ve the means to cure the feeble
Why won’t you cast your pearls to sows?
Questions are the mortal cancer
Sweeping down on pagan wings
If I expect to find an answer
Why do I fear to ask these things?*
-Jace Seavers
So I’d like to pose an new question to you all based on some statements I’ve been hearing:
Andrew writes,
Let’s talk about this, because this is huge. Next to questions of injustice and suffering, this is the biggest reason people lose their faith: They are unable to worship a God who seems to them to be a moral monster. Others internalize these feelings, either directing them inwards as shame and self-loathing, or outwards as condemnation and threats masquerading as religious piety.
As Andrew says, when people bring up these struggles, what often happens is that instead of caring for them, instead of listening to their hurt, the focus is on defending the doctrines at their expense.
What’s more, many times people feel threatened and so they respond with threats. People are told that they can’t question or… or else they will be punished.
Matt writes,
Maybe we even need to add here “…or to disagree with the Bible.” Because let’s be honest, that’s what gets thrown at people who start to ask these kinds of questions. At the very least, many of us have needed to find a new way to read the Bible that differs from how we learned to.
I’m sure that all of you have had to deal with this in one form or another because of your universalism. So when others have a view of God that is death to them, that is hurtful… how can we make room for those questions and protests? How can we care more about defending people then we are about defending doctrines?
If you’ve struggled with a hurtful image of God, how have you worked through this? How have you found support? Or how have you dealt with opposition and rejection?
Thanks Caleb, and no apology needed. It is quite difficult to communicate in person without misunderstanding let alone on an internet forum. I wish there was a better way, a way that allowed us to empathetically know and feel what the other person was thinking and feeling without the use of awkward and problematic words. Perhaps in the new creation it will be like that.
Dave
This has happened because of the diminishment of resurrection in Christian thought and hopes. The radical implications of resurrection have been lost in most of Christian theology because resurrection has largely been overshadowed by the dualistic “after life” notions of going to heaven or hell when we die. This is a very self-centered perspective based on personal salvation instead of the all inclusive, expansive perspective of healing and liberation of all things into a new creation via resurrection that changes everything–even the laws of physics.
In our current age/universe we sit between 2 pillars, blessing and judgment (law and grace but not the OT law but natural law). Our current paradigm necessitates balance and the natural laws cannot be broken without consequence. If I jump out of a window gravity will judge me. So I need to learn the blessing of stairs. Water is a blessing. It gives life. Too much water and we will experience judgment, possibly death. Everything we sensually experience in this life/age is based on the relationship of these 2 pillars. Whatever a man sows that will he also reap. The sun shines on the good and bad. You can’t cheat the universe.
Good parents help their children to understand the relationship between the pillars - dog parents as well as people parents. Why? Because they know the consequences of losing balance. Parents know that a child may in fact need to be exposed to some form of judgment in order to forestall a more harsh judgment.
We often confuse the pillars with the directly intervening hand of God. The hurricane is God judging us for our sins. Meaning God suddenly and against anything natural stirred up a storm to punish people - in effect we may believe he acted as an earthy parent would to try and teach us a lesson. God IS a loving parent and he knows his children in this age are living under the constraints of the 2 pillars but he is a parent ultimately unconstrained by our current paradigm.
Why is the current age / universe built on the foundation of the 2 pillars? Because of the fall and the dual mind (knowing good and evil) which we acquired there.
Things are not optimal now in that we don’t currently see in the laws of the universe a very accurate picture of who God really is. There are hints and glimpses but our perception is clouded by our close relationship with the 2 pillars. Religion tells us God is nothing more than the 2 pillars - he is blessing and judgment, goodness and wrath. Etc. This is not true. God is not the 2 pillars.
Exactly right, the God revealed in Jesus is not a schizophrenic god. He is unequivocally good because He unreservedly, freely gives all that he is (his total being/life) to all things regardless if they are good, bad or indifferent–that is agape. If they are good he enables them to be more good, if they are bad he frees them from their badness and if they are indifferent/apathetic he enlivens them with his healing/transforming life.
There is a BIG change coming. Behold ALL things will be made new. It will be like nothing we have ever seen before. It started at the cross where we saw someone and something occur that transcended our 2 pillar paradigm. This new wine will break all of our old wine skins.
This really lifts my spirits when I hear someone else say this in their own words. It is rarely said and I drink it in like a cool, refreshing drink of water down my parched throat.
We should be careful not to project our current paradigm onto the next. The Spirit is urging us to a greater vision and hope and it is very good news indeed!
Sadly this is what Christianity has by and large done and it has considerably dimmed that hope and vision for not only Christians, but for the vast majority of humanity that desperately needs to hear that very good news.
Keep those refreshing, quenching waters flowing David.
Dave
Derek,
sorry if I misunderstood you. I read this:
…and thought you were saying that some punitive consequences (like placing your child on time-out) are good.
I hope you can understand why I might have thought you affirmed some forms of punishment. But I see clearly you do not. I just don’t think you’re being consistent. But let me say this, often I find I’m not being consistent. And that is why I appreciate these discussions.
Derek,
I agree with much of what you’re saying. I imagine many here on the forum would affirm your last post that we as people can tend to value our ideas (doctrines) over other people. Still, we should understand that the very ideas we discuss are the things we believe will make us whole. After all, that’s what many here feel is the problem - if we see God as punitive or retributive then we must see him as an accuser and that is harmful to humanity. So I believe we all agree that doctrine is critical, but it’s right doctrine that helps us. The problem is - who defines right doctrine and that is why we discuss these issues 
For me it’s the logic of love from which all things work together. I agree with Drew regarding how people see God but I can’t say that because God disciplines (or punishes in my view) that it qualifies that God hates people. My guess is the problem people have with God who are too down on themselves, is that they don’t believe God is loving. The accuser tries to get us to believe that God does not value us. But that does not require us to tell people that there is nothing wrong with them. And if there is something wrong with them, we all agree there are consequences for doing evil (whether it’s from God or just natural consequences). It’s my opinion that the reason we self-loathe, is because we don’t recognize the simple truth that God loves us. Perhaps I’m wrong about that, but it makes sense to me.
Dave, I’m glad it was helpful. Yes, indifference and even resistance are the most common reactions I’ve encountered to the message of hope. For me the darkness comes when I feel the overwhelming urge to just give up that people will “get it”. They just seem so afraid to think for themselves and rely totally on what they are told is truth by their “clergy”. There are of course some fantastic ones like Rev Drew on this forum but they are few and far between. For the most part they are as in the days of Jesus, gatekeepers preventing men from entering the kingdom - modern day pharisees.
Maybe the Internet, resources like this forum, and books like Derek’s will help break the log jam. I don’t know.
I absolutely love the book of Ephesians. So much great stuff in there.
Derek,
Thanks for patience with my misunderstandings! In summary, you said, one can’t “trust a Father who would "allow" their child to be hurt” (9-25 6:46). “This world is full of pain that God apparently can’t stop” (9-26 4:09). “I don’t know if God can prevent evil… so if God cannot prevent bad things…” (10:20pm). Even that one doesn’t “need” to believe “love will win” or in God, to commit to love’s vulnerable way (10-28 2:43).
From all this, I assumed that God’s “ability” to “prevent” suffering or “stop” evil was in doubt. You well clarified “that’s not what I’ve said,” and “I don’t believe God lacks the ability…” (9-27 10:23). And your’re entirely right, that is a traditional view. You also emphasize that “God does not now prevent” such suffering.
Thus, my puzzlement in what we both affirm is on making moral sense of God having both the “ability” to prevent suffering, and yet presently God “does not prevent it.” Under your valid commitment to separate God completely from anything violent or traumatic, what should one think is the reason why God does not stop it? Would it be incoherent to presume that though suffering has no value or redemptive purpose, a good and able God would choose not to stop it?
Thanks for wrestling with us on the hard questions,
Bob
Perhaps another way to state the difference between a focus on “doctrine vs people” is this:
When someone who has been a part of the tradition gives feedback that they have experienced a doctrine as hurtful, there are 2 typical responses people take:
**1) Progressive ** Relate to the person’s hurt, and think together with them about how the doctrine can be changed/re-thought so that it is not hurtful.
2) Traditional/Conservative Relate to the doctrine, and defend it. The person is the one who needs to change/re-think so that they affirm the doctrine or particular interpretation of Scripture.
I used to take this “conservative” approach. However after many years of working pastorally with people and hearing their hurts and struggles with faith, I now I am convinced that the progressive approach is one I would want to affirm over the conservative approach for two important reasons:
1st because it is more pastoral, helping people to find a healthy and life-giving faith. It prioritizes people.
2nd because I am convinced that it better represents how Jesus approached his religious tradition, and how he in fact interpreted the Bible. (his approach being one that was clearly was prioritizing people over tradition)
One of our Sunday morning class teacher/ facilitators who founded a number of house churches in our area said the other day. "You know, that’s the problem I have with theology, is that sometimes it doesn’t ‘walk’ ", by which he meant; “it doesn’t go anywhere”. This is in a relatively conservative hell-believing environment, to boot.