I too sense that the priority of people is a powerful reason to re-consider a doctrine that appears hurtful. But when it comes to “experiencing a doctrine as hurtful,” there is great variety among people as to which ideas do that. Many people react to my universalism as something distressingly injurious toward their walk with God. Many Jewish friends tell me that they find pacifist doctrines of non-violence deeply hurtful (to the very existence). That needn’t mean I should change it, or that I wouldn’t encourage them to re-think and affirm Christianity’s traditional idea of loving our enemies.
Thus, wouldn’t playing off “changing” an idea against “affirming” it, and so simply putting “progressive” over “conservative” (based on how someone says they “experience” it) seems to leave out wresting with additional bases for evaluating whether something is true and moral?
Bob,
The first thing I would do is listen. I would ask the people who find universalism “distressingly injurious toward their walk with God” why that is? I would ask the people who say that nonviolence is “hurtful to their very existence” to explain what they mean. Then I would go from there.
Hi Gene,
I absolutely agree that the church should not be telling people there is nothing wrong with them or that sin and evil don’t matter. But what many people experience in church is to be affirmed in their guilt and self-loathing and to pick up the message that “You are right to hate yourself. We don’t like you much either, neither does God, and that’s not going to change unless you change and clean up your act first.” Whereas the church, if it is any use at all, needs to be the place where people don’t just hear platitudes about love of God and neighbour but where they experience the grace, the healing, correcting and transforming love of Christ. If people are to “recognize the simple truth that God loves them”, they need to feel and experience that love first from us, the followers of Christ.
I think we are probably all agreed on this but just wanted to make sure you hadn’t misunderstood me.
Cheers, Drew
Now there’s a sad but heartfelt poem, thanks for sharing, bro
This really resonates with me…
Before I go any further though, I just want to say that I finished your book tonight… and I must say, well done, sir!
It was eloquent, thought-provoking, encouraging, challenging, and enlightening… and even though it’s a small book, it was well worth the $17 or so that I paid for it. So thank you for taking the time to write it and share it.
There was so much packed into that little book that I’ll have to take time to reflect on it for sure… please pray that God would help me to do so, as I tend to be flaky in that regard… but then again, as you said towards the end, its not so much that we need to think more deeply as much as it is that we need to live more deeply, which is even more challenging…
Your book really hits to the heart of what it means to actually live a life of faith… and I really appreciate how humble you were in expressing how you fall short in this… boy, can I resonate with that… sometimes I just feel so mediocre and lackluster in how I live out what I claim to believe… I guess you could say I consider myself an awkward and haphazard follower of Jesus, who stumbles and shuffles and even crawls more than he walks… the fact that God would still love and still want someone so weak and so small and, well, so disappointing (or at least that’s how I feel about it) is just amazing to me…
I really resonate with how you spoke of Jesus, of God, coming into our brokenness… that was actually what drew me to this whole Jesus thing more than anything, the thought that God really knows how I feel, shares in my struggle, the struggle of, well, just living this life that I live, the struggle of walking in my shoes, of just being a human being… and this even includes the struggle of feeling like a disappointment and a failure…
It’s like the quote at the bottom of my page, which I heard in a dream that I had once…
…
What I took from that is that the sad reality of life, the bad news that comes before the good news, so to speak, that the good news is an answer to, is there is pain, and we all have pain; physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, you name it, the pain of being wounded and hurt, the pain of being broken and messed up, the pain of being sinned against, the pain of being sinful, the pain of fear, doubt, confusion, grief, of injustice, of hunger and thirst, of loneliness and hopelessness, the pain of living, the pain of dying, the pain of being human… but the good news is that because of God’s love for humanity, He enters into our pain, even takes it onto His shoulders in some great and mysterious, but very real, way, and is with us in the pain, in our pain…
Or, like Paul Brand says so beautifully at the end of his and Philip Yancey’s book, In His Image:
That is so beautiful to me, like poetry, like music…
The God who enters into our brokenness and our pain, personally, who comes into our dark, and whether we may be aware of it or not, and sits beside us… His presence being a promise of freedom, of walking out into the light of life, and of joy, beyond the walls of whatever prison we may be in, whether we are aware of it or not, joy, in the words of J.R.R.Tolkien, as poignant as grief…
It’s hard to find words to express such a thing as this…
It’s the faith, the hope, that has kept me alive in my darkest moments of fear and doubt and despair and madness, that, despite all appearances, I am not alone, and God is with me in the dark, and cares, and understands, and is holding me and will never give up on me… and then my heart wonders, ‘is this true for everyone?’
Which is where something like universal reconciliation comes in… if God could love someone so unworthy as myself in such a powerful way, then why not everyone? How am I any better or deserving than my neighbor, than my family, my friends, than strangers all around, than even my enemies?
And as strange as it may seem, the belief that this unfailing love Of God applies to all and not just myself and a few others makes it all the more meaningful to me, rather than less so…
The fact that God loves the person next to me just as much as He does me makes His love all the more astounding, and trustworthy and true, if that makes any sense…
But then perhaps I’m getting ahead of myself… my apologies, I tend to ramble.
Getting back to your question, about struggling with our perception of God, and even what we perceive in the Bible, to illustrate some of my struggle with this, here’s a poem I wrote a few years ago when I was struggling with tension between the deep longing and aching of my heart and what the Bible seemed to be saying, and what I was hearing in church and elsewhere concerning God and His ways…
In one of the buildings I used to clean, the Central Library in downtown Portland, there was a night when I was really struggling with all of these things, and I was alone on the 5th floor, and outside was a balcony… that night I thought of throwing myself off… I didn’t though, even though I considered it, in part because I admit that I was too afraid of dying, but also because somewhere inside of me I believed, or at least hoped, that I wasn’t alone, that I had some kind of reason to keep going, to keep living…
I can understand what Bob said here:
But I would say that there is a vast difference between someone being uncomfortable with universalism, because they don’t like the idea of everyone being okay in the end, for whatever reason, which is probably based upon their own selfishness and lack of mercy towards others or simply a lack of understanding of what universal reconciliation is really all about, and someone wanting to cease to exist because they have the fear inside of them that God hates them and can’t be trusted, thus pulling the rug out from under them and leaving them feeling like a fly fighting against the universe…
And there is a difference between people feeling hurt about not being encouraged to pick up the sword, for whatever reason, because they think fighting solves problems (which it rarely does, in my opinion) or because they feel that they have a right to defend themselves (a valid concern, but again, fighting rarely solves problems, in my opinion) and someone who believes that God is massively disappointed with them and is holding them over a fire, like a spider on a string…
I’m not saying that their concerns shouldn’t be addressed, they should, but in all honesty, having been someone who has felt deep anguish and has come to the point of almost going insane a number of times in his life over a very negative perception of God and himself and life in general, I think people speaking out against universalism or non-violence as if they were really bad things, as if the healing and restoration of all people was something terrible, or is if keeping the peace was something horrible, amounts to empty whining in comparison, at least to me, with all due respect.
Though I have no doubt that your friends, Bob, are lovely people (even if I think they’re getting their panties in a twist over things like everyone being alright in the end and people not fighting, things that I can’t see any reason for really getting your panties in a twist over, is silly ), and I agree with Derek, that we’ve gotta try to talk these things out…
(My apologies if I’m coming off as a bit harsh… I’ve been through a lot of turmoil over the years because of fears and doubts about God and life and everything, so I guess it just confuses me and frustrates me that there are people out there who would get massively upset about things that encourage hope and peace, like universalism or non-violence… I just really don’t get it. )
And as far as how we can evaluate what it is true and moral? That’s a much more difficult question for me… all I know is that there are some things that I must believe to keep from going nuts, to be honest…
And though I’m not saying that truth is relative, I do believe that ultimate truth is universal and applies to everyone, but I must say that I’m inclined to believe whatever makes sense to my heart (and my head, to a lesser extent, to be honest) and gives me hope…
On the one hand I look at all the evidence that I’m presented with, and try to use my head as best I can and try to formulate some kind of working worldview, but then on the other hand, with some things I just go with my gut…
I know that may sound lame to some, but that’s where I’m at…
Sometimes I feel like I’m just a kid stumbling around in the dark groping for some light…
I’m not very systematic in my thinking I admit… I hold onto glimmers, flecks of stars in the night sky…
Not sure if I’m making any sense… sorry, when I’m tired, as I am, as I usually am ( ) I starting waxing all philosophical and poetic, while all scatterbrained-ish.
But anyways, back to what you were asking Derek, yes, I think this is very important, as I’m sure you can tell.
As far as how I’ve worked through this, I think it’s more how God has been at work… His patience with all of my anger and my doubt, His forgiveness for all of my accusations and lashing out, His grace and His mercy and His love in the face of all of my brokenness, in the face of my mess, in the face of my selfishness and pride, my lust and bitterness, my apathy and forgetfulness, and everything… and I believe that He is answering my prayers, slowly but surely, and has heard my cries for answers, for reasons to trust Him…
And I’ve found support from kindred spirits, from people who cared, and I’m grateful for that support over the years… and my prayer is that I can give back, and offer the same kind of support to others who are struggling as I have…
And as far as dealing with opposition and rejection? Well, usually I’ve failed epically in that regard.
I’ve often just gotten angry or walked away feeling dumb, but then every now and then by grace I have somehow responded in a more constructive and helpful and even loving way, to my surprise.
How can we make room for questions and protests?
Well, we can try to be humble and gracious, open-minded too, and make room that way, though that’s easier said than done, I’ll admit.
And how can we care more about defending people than defending doctrines?
Well, I guess all we can do is pray that God would help us to love people, which is what Jesus’ teaching, through both word and action, boiled down to, just loving people, as hard as that may be, and that’s the heart of the matter, not defending doctrine, as important as that may be in some cases… all we can do is pray, and seek God’s help in learning and growing in our capacity to live and love as we are meant to… though recognizing that we ourselves are loved I think is key in this…
My goodness, I imagine that my post here is all over the place, so my apologies to all if I’ve said anything rash or nonsensical… as I’ve implied elsewhere, I’m not perfect.
Anyways, thank you again Derek for your book, it’s pretty awesome, bro.
And also, I was wondering, if you’re comfortable answering, I’m still not sure where you stand on universalism, if you could share about that… your framework and way of looking at things in your book seems to point in that direction, or at least leans in that direction, but I’m not sure… and don’t worry, I won’t blow up at you if you disagree with it, or aren’t convinced of it, as I used to disagree with it and be unconvinced of it myself (even though I would have liked to believe it, but didn’t think at the time that I was allowed to).
But anyways, that does bring up a question… like I said, your book was great, but in it you didn’t really seem to address issues of the afterlife very much, about what happens to people after they die, or if there can be salvation after death, or the scope of the effect of Christ’s atonement, that sort of thing… it may be that not touching on those issues very much was intentional on your part, as it would go into far deeper waters, and probably require a much bigger book, but I was just wondering about that… hopefully I don’t open up a can of worms on that one.
But whatever the case, it was a wonderful book, and thank you again, Derek.
Well, I think I’ve meandered and rambled enough for the time being tonight… me and all my excess verbiage
Blessings to you Derek, and blessings to you all, and peace
Drew,
I totally agree. My only difficulty is setting up false dichotomies by saying that if you don’t then you set up God to be the accuser, which is simply false. Yes, people need to be loved in order that they may know that God truly loves them - no doubt. That is central to our being Jesus in the world. And it is anti-christ to tell anyone that it is right for them to hate themselves due to their sin. The command is that we love others AS MUCH AS WE LOVE OURSELVES. It is important, though difficult, to love ourselves.
But we shouldn’t say, because the church has a bad practice that has destroyed lives, we should develop new doctrines. We can hold that God judges and punishes and maintain God loves them - Thomas Talbott’s way of synthesis. In fact, I’m not sure that denying God as punitive really escapes much because in the end, whether it’s God, the devil or nature that brings about some suffering in us, the point is we suffer and either God’s doing it himself or God doesn’t care enough to bale us out. And this is really the heart of my argument: Love is the only thing that heals and restores us and supplies us with the strength we need to continue. That is the axiom, where we at this forum, including Derek, all stand. And that “love” is what needs defining; that’s important - otherwise Westboro Baptists are giving “tough” love to the world.
So I agree and I would not deny your sensitive approach, I would only say that we need not throw out the baby with the bathwater. We need to help the church correct their doctrine of love - that’s what Jesus was doing - teaching them of God’s invisible quality that have been known to all mankind since the creation - Love. If we don’t teach the church that, then they will not change their behavior - for in their mind they are loving people in telling them to hate themselves.
If God isn’t the cause of human suffering or doesn’t care enough to bale us out, then who’s love is healing and restoring us?
What is God’s contribution in all this, more precisely what did the death and resurrection of Jesus accomplish and contribute towards the healing and restoration of the world?
Dave
Of course none of us would argue this Dave. I’m saying that’s the way many people who live in fear see it. They ask these very questions and because they see such horrible tragedy then conclude that God is evil - the classic problem of evil.
My point is we do suffer, we all agree (I think). As Derek points out, we see that God does not deliver people from such suffering, so either we should conclude that God is non-benevolent but we should be - such is Derek’s point that even if there is no God we should live this way because it’s good - OR - God allows suffering because he can use it for a end means by which we are perfected (Joseph’s brothers, The hardened Pharaoh). The 1st view is sad. The 2nd view is grounded on a benevolent God. I think this is what Bob has been driving at. We need to see that God is sovereignly behind all things awaiting our redemption. Otherwise, we lost love as the main goal. For even if atheism is true and we live as Derek points out, then some still will suffer being raped and murdered and there is no restoration or reconciliation for them (sad). Thus I agree with Derek, non-violence is pragmatically better then violence, but it doesn’t support our faith in God, it only eases some people’s anguish in this life but offers no hope in the end. In other words, it seems Universalism is what’s necessary to help our faith that there is a loving God - whether he’s punitive or not is not the issue - it’s whether he saves all or not.
I think both those who favor “changing” doctrines and those who seek ways to “affirm” them can agree that listening is a priority. My only point is that others “experiencing” ideas negatively as injurious to them is not a decisive criterion for rejecting a doctrine. I’m sure Israel’s religious establishment felt injuriously attacked by Jesus’ views of life & judgment.
Gene, I really hope you don’t actually believe this, and are just not realizing what you a saying here.
I think it would be good if you became a bit more sensitive to how your words could wound.
Imagine if someone here who is reading this board had been raped, and now hears that you say that when this happened this was because they were being punished for their sin, and that they should see this as loving and for their good. If a person really believed that God was like this, can you see how they might become an atheist?
Again, I don’t think you intend to be saying things that are so disturbing. So I’d like you to take a step back and look at how your words can sound to others.
I can totally appreciate what you’re saying (and in face think you may be right - but I have to work myself there).
I imagine that someone raped would be hurt to hear that God allowed, maybe even intended, it to happen and can give you grace in that suffering to reflect to others who have been violated as a means of restoring them too.
After all imagine telling Jesus that it was God’s will that they murder Jesus. But wasn’t that the very idea - That he gave his only son? If we say it wasn’t part of God’s plan then what is it, coincidence?
After all doesn’t scripture declare such things as:
a) God has bound all men over to disobedience in order that he might have mercy on them.
How can God have mercy on someone who doesn’t suffer?
b) "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. (obviously I have great difficulty with the free will theodicy).
I tend to resonate with the reformed who see that God is in control of all things (murder and rape included) but only under the paradigm that God subjects us to it in order to have mercy on us.
The horrors that we face are realities for sure, and I’m not minimizing the violations. I’m only supporting that God must be over all things in order to produce good from them. If he’s not over them then how does he assure us all will be well? And if he can’t assure us all will be well, then we have a reason to sulk in suffering.
Still, I’m open to hearing your points Derek, I think there could be some great discovery for me there and I’m totally willing to hear it. Just expect some of us to fight our way through it - I hope you don’t hear me as just being antagonistic for the hell of disagreeing. I take your words seriously and to heart.
Also regarding ministry for those who have suffered terrible things, I would not even talk doctrine with them. I doubt they care much about God’s sovereignty, free will or eschatology. I think we ought to simply love them, listen to them and affirm them during their time of great struggle.
Now if we are to talk about how things work in this world on a forum or venue that is for the purpose of discussing philosophy, politics or theology , those venues I believe allow us to say things we might not say to someone who’s in great pain. And if someone on this forum has that, I hope they can understand that I don’t intend insensitivity, if anything, I hope they can see that I’m arguing God loves them and disagreeing with the notion that God couldn’t stop evil from harming you. (which is once again where I see you headed Derek).
To put it bluntly:
Imagine eating a hamburger in front of a starving kid; that hardly makes eating a hamburger wrong.
Wow. That is just gorgeous Matt! You’re whole post is really heartfelt and eloquent, but that paragraph really struck me.
As an aside, if you don’t already, you really should have a blog. You’re a really good writer and I think a lot of people would connect with your honestly and your struggles.
Reading through what you wrote, I think you completely nailed it. The hard part, as you recognize, is actually walking that out. Not just in our being like Jesus (which we all struggle to live out) but even in trusting in God’s love, even in struggling to love ourselves, struggling to keep our heads up in this dark world.
It’s really important for us to hold on to the idea that God loves us, no matter how lost we feel, no matter how much we screw things up, no matter how much of a mess we are. But I also want to add that we need to love each other. Right now, for whatever reason, God can fell far away sometimes. We can experience deafening silence. That’s why it is soooo important that we care for one another, that we practice that same unconditional crazy love that we have seen in Jesus, and which we all need so much. It is being loved like that which makes us come alive, that scatters all our darkness. So we really need to love each other and allow ourselves to be loved.
We need to love to the point of it being scandalous. We need to love people who don’t deserve it-- love sinners, love enemies, love ourselves. We need to love so much that it seems “foolish.” So much that it seems imbalanced and unreasonable. Because love heals.
So my prayer for you Matt is that God would bring that kind of love from others into your life, and that in the times where you do not have that, that God would be that friend to you, filling your heart with the knowledge of how deeply you are loved.
I’m really glad you didn’t Matt. You are loved, more than you can possibly imagine. Hold to that.
I wrote an e-book that is available on my website for free called Intimacy with God I think you could really resonate with it. Have a look.
In answer to your 2 questions:
First, I’d say that my belief/hope in universalism is pretty much exactly parallel to yours.
Second, regarding afterlife, what happens to people after they die, or if there can be salvation after death I think anything I or anyone else could say would be speculation since we’ve never seen it. But I can share this story:
One time I was praying and said to God “if the people I love wont be in heaven then I don’t want to go either because I could never be there knowing that those I love are suffering”
Then God showed me something I’ll never forget:
I saw myself walking into hell in protest, thinking I was leaving Jesus in heaven above. I saw all the suffering souls in torment there… and off in the distance I saw a figure kneeling beside them, ministering to them. As I drew closer I recognized that it was Jesus. He looked up, and said to me
“I was wondering how long it would take you to get here. I’m glad you finally came. Now help me.”
Our theology MUST be one that can be said to those who are in great pain. Anything less is simply not a theology that reflects the heart of Jesus.
This is EXACTLY the problem: people making public declarations about what God wants or how God acts (whether from a pulpit or in a forum like this) that are said in a detached theoretical way that when they are applied to our real lives make God sound horrific and immoral.
We can’t do theology from an ivory tower, we need to do it on the street, down in the dirt. That’s where we always find Jesus–among the hurting.
In this vision are you referring to the living hells here on Earth which real flesh and blood people suffer in or are you referring to some notion of an “after life” experience of hell?
I appreciate what you’re getting at. I also think your vision is beautiful and I resonate with it as well.
As for preaching from ivory towers, I’m not sure that really is totally true. What’s beautiful to one isn’t so beautiful to others. Jesus himself spoke harshly against the self-righteouss (cut to pieces). And his words weren’t if you’re not born again everything’s going to be ok. So I hardly think the truth always feels soft and cozy. Often when we’re hurt NOTHING soothes us except time.
I’ve never been raped and I doubt I can minister to others near the level as someone who has been. Like I said, I doubt that dropping theology on someone who’s been deeply hurt helps - “I know you’ve been hurt but you must understand God loves you, he simply won’t stop it from happening” is that comforting to you? It seems your only option Derek is to tell them “God can’t stop it” which is exactly what Bob has been pressing. If you deny that, then what will you tell them “God can stop it but chooses not to?”
That to me seems as barbaric as Calvinism.
Now with that in mind, why does he stop evil in some cases or would you deny that too? If some Jews were rescued from ovens, while others were thrown in, do you deny God’s hand in that? I’m not being facetious. I’m seriously trying to work out every possible angle to test this bridge you’ve crossed.
Thanks for the reply Derek.
Do you see salvation/healing as primarily a subjective personal encounter with God, saving/healing the world one person at a time and then at the end of life returning in some form back to God (heaven)? Is there a larger, objective dimension to salvation that over arches and includes the personal experience of it?
All those who never had such an encounter with God or were never ministered to by Jesus via those who bring the compassion and healing of God to them. Countless numbers of individuals have fallen through the cracks, never reached or touched by any real physical ministration, who were born into terrible circumstances, suffered a short life of misery and then just died. Is death (real death, not going to heaven)their best hope for at least it ends their suffering?
I was tempted to take this the wrong way at first too, but I’m glad of the clarification even though I soon “got” where he was going with this.
Changing gears: This morning’s message/sermon was interesting. The passage being preached from was 2 Cor. 10. The pastor made an interesting comment, which was this: “Punishment does not change the heart of man. It can only affect the outward behavior.”
After he said this, something occurred to me. (Now don’t get me wrong here, I’m not intending this as a dogmatic statement, but rather as a discussion prompter) What occurred to me was; If this is true, then that would seem to be (depending on your definition of punishment) either an argument against any form of universalism or purgatiorial universalism; or an argument for ultra-universalism. It is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance…
Welcome 
So thank you for taking the time to write it and share it. 
) I starting waxing all philosophical and poetic, while all scatterbrained-ish.