The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Quakers

Sass old girl -

What do you play? Or do you sing? Amazing that you should be heard in sunny Wales - it is a small world. Will do a post tomorrow - have been busy today (but I’m sorting out in my head what should go where and in what order while I do other things)

All the best to you -

Dick

Johnny and I both used to be Punks!!! (nice polite ones). And corpselight plays ‘Metal’ on his guitar. I still play the piano when I have the time - but for my own pleasure rather than for other people’s (I’m not sure it would be a pleasure for them!!)

Great stuff as always, Rick :slight_smile:

And I read all of it, as I’m a fan of yours. :wink: Your winsome, informative and encouraging contributions here are very much appreciated, bro. :slight_smile:

I like your posts with Cindy too on her intro thread, the affectionate (and strictly platonic, of course) friendship between you two is refreshing and encouraging. :slight_smile: I have a good friend named Alicia Myers whom I talk with on the phone regularly.
She’s a passionate, bold, and intelligent woman who has been through hell but has come out strong. I think you’d like her. :slight_smile: She’s ten years my senior, so I think of her as an elder sister. :wink:
Granted, I’m engaged to a wonderful young girl named Kaylyn (five years my junior), but I think it’s a good thing to have solid (and platonic) friendships with those of the opposite, and in our case, fairer gender. :wink:

Many blessings to you Rick :slight_smile:

And Sass, it’s interesting that you bring up Evelyn Underhill’s book…
I found it a few weeks ago in the recycling at work (I’m a janitor, by the way), and decided to grab it, as it looked interesting. Haven’t read it yet, but I’ve heard it compared, in style and approach, to William James’ The Varieties Of Religious Experience (which I read once back in my late teens, and I thought it was quite good; a balanced, fair, agnostic approach to religion in general… so you could say that I was a fan of it :wink:), and even the format seems rather similar.
I may have to check it out sometime (and maybe re-read James’ book as well, now that I come to think of it). :slight_smile:

Thanks for bringing it up, and blessings to you as well. :slight_smile:

Matt

@ Dick: I sing and play guitar. It’s a fun little outlet for me. As far as the punk thing goes…That’s pretty much the coolest thing ever. American punks? I’ve known enough to say:…“Pffft! I’m hanging with the Deadheads!” The Brits though? Yeah, YOU guys were cool…Maybe the coolest. I got respect. :laughing:

@Matt: Not kidding, it was a pretty darn hard read, but worth it. Seems like Providence you should read it now huh? :wink:

Hi Sass – yep I reckon English Punks were just fine. But I would say that wouldn’t I? - because I was one myself.

Of course you may have heard that we had our comedy band called The Pistols. It’s a little known fact that Johnny Rotten based his stage persons on music Hall portrayals of Shakespeare’s Richard III as a pantomime villain. Well it is so sad that a comedy band descended into such nihilism and tragedy manipulated by a horrible impresario. My Mum and Dad – whom I loved then and still love – were a little bit devoted to Her Majesty the Queen in a way that went beyond a moderate respect. I remember the first time –as a grumpy adolescent – I didn’t show up to watch the Trooping of the Colour on the telly with my family (that’s when the Queen receives the military colours of her regiment with pomp and splendour once a year) Dad wouldn’t speak to me for two days afterwards (which was daft because he had a sense of humour and perspective when he tried and shouldn’t have taken this so seriously). Also when I bought a copy of the Pistols ‘God Save the Queen’ in 1977 he found it and said – ‘Either that record goes son – or you go!’; well , we both stayed; and we both mellowed and started to like each other again eventually.

American Punk bands often majored on the nihilism as far as I can remember, and werne’t very funny either (apart from the New Wave acts like Jonathan Richmond and the Modern Lovers, the Ramones, The Talking Heads which were a bit different and which we thought were cool). But the sort of punk that I remember fondly –was the stuff produced by Polly Styrene of The X-Ray Spex, dear old Kirsty MacCool – and the cokeny New Wave balladeer Billy Bragg. Just to defend the honour of the much maligned New Wave movement – here’s some links for you:

Here’s Kirsty singing the Kinks song ‘Thank you for the Days’

youtube.com/watch?v=Pa3FwO1Tx-M

Here’s Polly singing the witty anti-consumerist anthem ‘Artificial’

youtube.com/watch?v=ZnAirqN2 … re=related

Here’s Billy singing the Diggers song I mentioned on the Wall Street thread –the same Diggers that I’ve been speaking about here in connection with the Quakers (he’s allowed to sing the song as far as I’m concerned because he’s gentle man, passionate but moderate)

youtube.com/watch?v=lxW5yvpeHg4 (studio – easier to hear the words)

youtube.com/watch?v=WBDd5pPocLA (live at Wesleyan Church festival in Vancouver)

Hi Matt – I love being called ‘winsome’ – you are very kind to me. And I wouldn’t be able to write posts that appeal to some people if I hadn’t got a fairly good idea of who those people are - which enables me to have the conversation even if it sometimes seems like I’m hogging the shop). By the way I used to have the Witch of Blackbird Pond’ - it’s a lovely little kids book. I loaned it to my then girlfriend and we split up and I never got it back (this was ages ago and I still see her every now and then so I’ll pull he leg about the ‘wicked book theft’ when next we speak. There is a novel by a Dutch Quaker named Jan De Haartog which I remember enjoying greatly. Part 1 is entitled ‘THE Children of Light – that’s about the early Friends; and part 2 is entitled ‘THE Peaceable Kingdom’ which is about the early Friends in America. I really enjoyed part 2 which has some terrifically well drawn and vivid characters (believe me, it’s not a thin gruel fest for prigs and prudes, it celebrates life in all of its Shakespearian fullness)

Cindy is an absolute sweetheart and I know she’s so good on this site when she speaks to people with her gentle encouragement and wisdom. Yes I’m very fond of her and she’s got loads of the courtesy and chivalry that I’d only read about -before touching base with her - that I understand, was one of the best aspects of the old South (well that’s how it seems to me). I’m glad you like our chats. When I was younger and I used to see men and women who were twenty years older than me getting on together I was always struck by how they were less embarrassed in each other’s company and more at ease – because there was no longer anything to prove. And yep – it’s happened to me too, and it is a real blessing in middle years. And I guess each stage of life has its blessings sand we should focus on the blessings rather than on the other bits which aren’t quite so pleasant (like back pain!!! Look after your back while you are younger!!!). Cindy and I will have to keep up our online bi-weekly online leg pulling if only for you old chap! (And I’m glad to hear about your good female friend – it’s possible for us to get along just fine – this I know from experience)

All the best

Dick

I had a similar experience when my dad found my copy of the Dead Kennedys “In God We Trust, Inc.”

I still listen to Crass every now and then…

My Mum confiscated my copy of *Too Drunk to ****. * Twice!

And *Bloody Revolutions *is still possibly the greatest punk single ever. After Another Girl, Another Planet. Or maybe Teenage Kicks.

:smiley:

I’m partial to How Low Can A Punk Get for best single.

Ah, so you are a fan of the slower, mellower type of punk as purveyed by the Bad Brains, eh Eric? :smiley:

I just don’t have the same energy I did when I was younger…

At least I don’t go to James Taylor concerts…Oh, wait, I’m wearing a t-shirt from the last JT concert I went to now… :blush:

@ Dick, maybe I misspoke a bit. American punk MUSIC was pretty great. Though being a girl, the harder stuff (from either side of the pond), like the Pistols, DK, Bad Brains and some others the guys have mentioned was not my cup-o-tea, although I am familiar with them and their music. Blondie, the B52’s, Ramones, etc. were more my taste. And, I gather I’m a little younger than you so I was too late for the late 70’s goings on of that scene anyway. I was speaking more of the actual American PUNKS, in the mid 80’s, I knew at school…Too angry and whiny for me. Plus, the clique of them seemed to have money and it was very hard to take them seriously. :smiley: Anyway, when it comes to the British side, yeah, more The Smiths and The Cure for this girl.

And for Dick’s next trick, he will attempt to get this thread back on topic! :laughing:

Hi Sass

Any fan of the world’s greatest ever rock and roll band is alright in my book! I saw the Ramones at the Hammersmith Palais in, I think, 1980. Unbelievable. 1-2-3-4!!!

I’m still a bit of an ageing (48 and counting) punk at heart. I’ve seen Stiff Little Fingers and the Damned over the last few years - threw myself into the melee at the front, only to come staggering out again after about a minute and a half, gasping for breath. I never remembered pogoing was quite such hard work. :smiley:

Sorry, more off topic. :smiley: Come back Dick, we need you!

Shalom

Johnny

Well I know when I’ve got my orders! :wink: Actually I have been busy setting up a community project and organising the homecoming of the old girl next week – but I rather enjoyed this charming little diversion. We can’t be serious all of the time. If this is a sort of virtual tutorial – we’ve just had a virtual coffee break. And some very important things take place in a coffee break. We’ve got to know Eric (hi Eric – nice to meet you!); and I’m persuaded that somewhere out there some important learning has been going on not specifically connected to the subject – but something that makes me very proud of the learner.

Music is a matter of taste; pure and simple. The three artists I’ve cited as may ‘fave raves’ just happen to be the three that I consider most life affirming, funny and compassionate, and the least posey of the bunch of them, and that includes some mentioned above in my view (don’t get me started about Patti Smith! – oh alright, it’s cool by me if any of you are fans because it’s all a matter of taste). Oh yes – and ‘I Love My Baby ‘Cause She Does Good Sculptures’ by the Rezillos was also a minor masterpiece IMHO; and as for the pulchritudinous Laura Logic…

You have to move on in life. I remember in the nineties there was a band called ‘Chumbawumba’ who styled themselves as a ‘punk anarchist collective’ and had one not very illustrious hit in the UK. One of the band was named ‘Alice Nutter’ and another – who had the benefits of privileged education – went under the assumed moniker of Mr Norbert No-bacon. And they were all in their mid-thirties and still strutting as if in their late teens (seemed a bit undignified to me!). As Bob Marley once wrote:

It’s a punky reggae party
And it’s alright;
It’s a punky reggae party
And it’s tonight -
No boring old… (wind passers) will be there

And old Sobornost, having long since joined the crowd of boring old ‘wind passers,’ now leaves the reminiscences of his anecdotage to pick up the story of the Quakers.

OK I’ll tell you how I’m going to proceed. A friend of mine has kindly agreed to type some stuff up for me (extracts from books). So by the beginning of next week I should have material to post on the key figures in Quakerism, James Nayler, Robert Barclay, Mary Dyer, John Woolman, Elizabeth Fry, Hannah Whitall Smith, and Josephine Butler (Josephine was not actually a Quaker but she followed in the footsteps of Elizabeth Fry in a way that showed remarkable courage).
For now I would like to go back to the beginning and sketch the parts of the history of Quakerism I have not covered already starting with their roots in the Anabaptist Spiritual Tradition and working forward to the splits in the movement in the nineteenth century and how these affect Quakerism today.

So the next post will be about the Anabaptist Spirituals. Some of the material already appears on the Church of England and Universalism thread at Ecclesiology; but I have edited and extended it for the purposes of this thread. If you wish to this stuff you can wait for the post after the next post which will fill in details about the early Quakers in their radical/utopian phase not already covered.
All the best (and don’t take me too seriously)

Dick

The Anabaptist Spirituals

The Anabaptists originated among the poor of the Reformation although their leaders were often highly educated Christian Humanist scholars. All Anabaptists had/have in common the basic idea that membership of the Church should be a matter of voluntary association. Hence the rite of adult baptism was/is for them, not so much a fetish – ‘a thing necessary for salvation’ (as it sometimes can be with Strict/Particular Baptists who, it appears, are not part of the genuine Anabaptist lineage). Rather it is a sign that membership of the Church should be voluntary – which goes against the traditions and instincts of Magisterial Protestantism. Indeed one of the driving forces for religious toleration in Europe was that the rest of the Church finally came round to reading the scriptures as the Anabaptist did/do on this point – namely, that in the pre-Constantinian Church there was no compulsion to join (and this is the correct interpretation surely?).

Also the Anabaptists shared common ideas about not buying into the coercive state. Hence the reluctance to take oaths, to bear arms, and for some sects, even the advocacy of a type of Christian Anarchism in which all good are held in common (all of this being perceived as an enormous threat by Magisterial Protestantism – never mind the Munster debacle).
The Anabaptists divided into two distinct groups. There were the Scriptural Anabaptists – the Mennonites, the Hutterites (and latterly the Amish) – who emphasised the authority of the Word as scripture (interpreted with their own distinctive theology). The first Universalist sect of Scriptural Anabaptist that we know of was/are the Tunkers/Dunkers who originated in Germany in 1708 and later became the Church of the Brethren of Christ (one of the historic Peace Churches in the USA today). To my knowledge, before this time the mainstream traditions of Scriptural Anabaptists were annihilationist in eschatology.

Alongside the Scriptural tradition developed the Spiritualist tradition. The Spiritualist tradition traces its lineage to Hans Denck – the Christian Humanist scholar who was in Basle at the same time as Erasmus. The Spiritual Anabaptists emphasised both the Authority of the Word as Scripture, and the Authority of the Word as the Logos/Light that is within every human being (a theme that Origen with his emphasis on Christ as Wisdom would have agreed with). One reason for Denck’s Spiritualist emphasis was compassion for the poor and the illiterate who had recently been deprived of the comfort of Catholic sacramentalism but did not have the level of education required to comprehend the subtleties of Protestant doctrine. Denck’s emphasis was not on correct doctrine; rather he emphasised putting on the life of Christ in a spirit of Love and living this life gently with all one’s heart (I’ll have more to say about this later). This emphasis is certainly consonant with Erasmus’ Christian Humanism and many think Denck was directly influenced by Erasmus.

As Morwenna Ludlow argues in ‘Universal Salvation – the Current Debate’ Denck was accused at least three times of holding to a doctrine of Universal Salvation. However, his extant writings only suggest that he believed that God desired to save everyone – but this alone was an important departure from the Continental Magisterial Protestant tradition at the time.
The Anabaptist Spirituals – like the Anabaptist Scripturals – deplored the religious wars and religious persecutions of early modern Europe. Indeed it was an early sect of continental Spirituals that seem to have influenced the Quaker tradition of meetings for Worship; this sect known as the Collegiants, decided to suspend the practice of Holy Communion because divisions over its meaning were the cause of so much bloodshed at the time in Europe. So they met in silence as a sign of inaugurated mourning to their fellow Christians; they asserted that they would only resume the practice of Communion when all were pure enough in heart to comprehend its spiritual meaning which is ‘the Peace of Christ’.

The writings of the Spirituals had a big influence in England from the reign of James I onwards when, for example, the Anglican Rector of St Martin’s in the Field, Dr John Everard clearly taught in the manner of the Spirituals. These writings also had a massive influence on the sects that grew up during the English Civil War that approximated to Universalism – notably the Quakers and the Diggers/True Levellers.

Reading Scripture with the Anabaptist Spirituals

The Anabaptist Spirituals stressed the spiritual sense of scripture and John Everard – an Anglican clergyman in the reign of James I who was greatly influenced by the Spirituals – is a very articulate spokesperson for their approach. So I will cite him rather than Denck or Frank or any of the other continental spiritual reformers.

Everard tells us of how after his ‘spiritual’ conversion he came to know ‘Christ and the scriptures experimentally rather than grammatically, literally or academically’ (see Rufus Jones, p.240 of ‘Spiritual Reformers). He came to think lightly of ‘’notions and speculations and he ’centred his spirit on union and communion with God’. So he was writing the same language as George Fox when Fox was still a mere boy living in obscurity. (Rufus Jones again, see p 244 of Spiritual Reformers): ‘Unless we know Christ’, Everard says, experimentally so that ‘He lives within us spiritually, and so that all which is known of him in the letter and historically is truly done and acted in our won souls – until we experimentally verify all we read of Him – the Gospel is a mere tale to us.’ It is not saving knowledge to know that Christ was born in Bethlehem but [it is saving knowledge] to know that he is born in us. It is vastly more important to know experimentally that we are crucified with Christ than to know historically that he died in Jerusalem many years ago, and to feel Jesus Christ risen again in you is far more operative than to have’ notional knowledge’ that He rose on the Third day. ‘’When thou begins to find and know not merely that He was conceived in the womb of a virgin, but that thou art that virgin and the He more truly and spiritually, and yet more really, is conceived in thy heart so that thou feelest the Babe beginning to be conceived in thee by the power of the Holy Ghost and the Most High overshadowing thee; When thou feelest Christ a stirring to be born and brought forth in thee; when thou beginnest to see and feel all those mighty, powerful actions done in thee which thou readest that did He in the flesh – here is a Christ indeed, a real Christ who will do thee some good’, ( from Everard’s Epiphany Sermon ‘The Star in the East’).

In his ‘Gospel Treasures’ Everard tells us that ‘Men should not so much trouble themselves [who are eagerly expecting the second coming]about ‘ a personal reign of Christ here upon earth, if they saw that the chief and real fulfilling of Scriptures was in them; and that, whatever is externally done in the world or expressed in the scriptures, is but a typical and representative [Symbolic/allegoric], an points out [to] a more spiritual, a more saving, and a more divine fulfilling of them’. And famously he concludes: ‘If you be always handling the letter of the Word, always licking the letter, always chewing upon that, what great thing do you do? No marvel you are such starvelings!’

I think we can make a case that what Everard advocates as the true use of scripture (in the same manner as Denck and the other Spirituals) derives ultimately from the old religion of Catholic liturgy as experienced by the simple believer in the sacraments and the cycle of the church year. For example, In the medieval Catholic Church, the Athanasian Creed functioned as part of the liturgy – it was chanted solemnly and beautifully – in Latin; at the same time incense was wafted from a censer, bells were chimed, and candles were lit to illuminate the darkened church to indicate that here the central mysteries of the Christian faith were being set forth, both revealed and concealed. And these were the same mysteries that the believer experienced imaginatively during the liturgical year moving that moves through nativity, epiphany, ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and judgement. Obviously there were draw backs to this approach – the deliberate obscurity could enhance the hold of the priests over the laity. However, there is something to be said for not seeing this creed as a repository of purely rational formulas; for its words point to something beyond our ability to grasp in completeness. As the author of the medieval English manual of mystical prayer, ‘The Cloud of Unknowing,’ put it – ‘By love God is gotten and holden; by thought alone, never’. And surely the rationalism of the Reformers reversed this older Catholic understanding of the function of the Creed so that it became a check list of things that have to be believed if a person is to be saved; in my view this was a swing too far in the opposite direction. Indeed, I note that a proper Evangelical criticism of the mainstream/magisterial Reformers approach to this creed suggests that the mainstream reformers take on things implies that people are to be be saved through their own efforts of rational assent to a set of doctrines, rather than through faith and grace.

I think we can also see the Anabaptist Spirituals use of scripture as influenced by Origen who argued that scripture contains different levels of meaning – the literal/historical level, the moral level (the level that gives us practical lesson on how to live), and the allegorical/symbolic level – and this became mainstream tradition of ‘exegesis’ in the early Church. (Origen was the first of the Fathers to set this method of exegesis out systematically – but it did not begin with him). The weight given to each level of interpretation could be different for different portions of scripture. For example for the stories of the massacre of the Canaanites in the Book of Joshua some Origen prioritised the moral level – the stories teach us of a struggle against sin and we should not get hung up on the seemingly repugnant literal level of meaning. Likewise with the interpretation of the creation stories in Genesis – that even in the light of Hellenistic science known to the Church Fathers seemed farfetched on a literal level– he prioritised the allegoric level of interpretation. Obviously Origen’s method was open to abuse and could result in some very strange and forced reading sometimes. However, reading the scriptures thus does seemed to have provided the imaginative discipline for understanding sanctification/theosis as the imitation of Christ and therefore had real influence on the development of the Incarnational liturgy of the Church.

Luther sometimes used Origen’s method of exegesis; Calvin distrusted it focussing on the literal level (although he was no simple fundamentalist); Erasmus was an enthusiast for Origen – and Erasmus had a profound influence on the Anabaptist Spirituals.

Again and again we find the ‘what does it profit me to know the literal historical truths of the Bible’ in Anabaptist Spiritualist discourse. The leaders of the movement were all biblical scholars involved in efforts of scriptural translation – they loved the Bible. However, I note that the likes of Christopher Hill – the Marxist historian - have suggested that the ‘what does it profit’ theme suggest scepticism about scripture (but then he would say that wouldn’t he?). I prefer to take them at their word – even if this is sometimes expressed in hyperbole; what they are driving at is that the letter is dead unless we penetrate through to the spirit and live according to that spirit.

I think it is interesting that the Anabaptist Spirituals had special concern for the illiterate poor. The illiterate poor had been deprived of the consolations of Catholics sacraments and of the ‘easy to understand’ picture language presentation of the Gospel in medieval Christianity – with its stained glass windows and mystery plays communicating the story of God made Man in direct and earthy terms to direct and earthy people. The Reformation with its iconoclasm and its emphasis on literacy had, for good and for ill, largely destroyed this tradition in Protestant lands. It seems to me that with their teaching of the Gospel centred on sanctification with the allegoric/symbolic/ imaginative and pictured empathy level of scripture highlighted, they Anabaptist Spirituals were enabling the poor and illiterate to internalise the older and half remembered traditions of the Church liturgy without all of its medieval baggage of authoritarian control.

Also the Spirituals were showing real compassion because the literate Refomers, especailly the Calvinist, were persecutnig ordinary peole at the time for not having a percise notional understadngin of the forensic formulas of the mainstream Protestant faith; which would be a bit like us persectuing Christians today who are not computer litterate (the inventions of the internet in recent hisotry and the printing press in early modern history have many parrallels both in terms of beneficial advances and in terms of uphevals causing misery).

The next post will be on Jackob Boheme, The Family of Love, and the Seekers (with a nod to Roger Williams and the story of the struggle for Religious Tolerance). That will be enough background to the Quakers.

No hat homage for now please (if you feel tempted). Any questions of probing scrutiny - hat on to hat on - are gratefully accepted. And forgive me for my little leg pulls in the last post (I have to keep cheerful too)

All the best

Dick

Just a quick note –

How I wish I could see your faces and read your eyes: but I can’t, so I do my best.

Sass, don’t worry: I am taking this very seriously and it is all going according to plan despite disruptions in my life. You started this thread so I am only trying to do as you wish. I reckon you and Matt should start a thread on the Christian mystics if you want to – that would be interesting for a number of people who use this site; I won’t join in (because I’ve still got other stuff to do on ohter threads). However, if you want to ask me any questions just post me privately and I will give you my opinion privately. That should work well – if you ever need a hand (there’s no reason why you should do - but the offer is always open.

Andrew I’ve praised you for your searching questions on another thread - and was sincere in what I wrote - and I hope you are still reading here and will comment again.

Johnny and Eric – I am older than the both of you so am entitled to call myself a boring old ‘person’ without extending the negative compliment to either of you :wink:.

To all other friends or otherwise on this thread – you don’t have to ask searching questions unless you have some; but obviously feedback about bits that you’ve found especially striking or annoying is appreciated.

Finally , I found out tonight from reading Rufus Jones that the Anabaptist Spirituals also differed from the Anabaptist Scripturals because they did not identify the visible Church with the true Church. Certainly some sections of, say, the Mennonites today – if I understand rightly – are completely non-sectarian. However, although membership of Anabaptist Scriptural Churches was always voluntary – in the past they did tend to identify the ‘saved’ with those who were members of their Church (I think the Amish still tend to think in this way – hence their seclusion from the ‘world’). But the Spirituals were always open to the idea that the true Church contained people from all other Churches and even from other people of other faiths who had not heard the outward Gospel; and this was rooted in their doctrine of the Christ as Universal Logos which Denck seems to have taken from Erasmus and which Erasmus, in turn, took from Origen.

All the best

Dick

very cool stuff, Dick…keep it coming!

I leave this thread for a week or so, and everyone starts talking about punk. Sass — you have started a beautiful thread here! I’m more of the hardcore punk persuasion myself, though I very much appreciate peace and folk punk (as a young anarchist is penchant to do). I grew up with the Ramones through my teens (though as a fairly young lad, it was only ten years ago).

Sobornost — ongoing thanks for your posts! I’m a bit behind on them at the moment. Life’s been busy. But yes, I’m still around! I don’t know that much about the Anabaptist Spirituals — though I might even be heading in that direction myself.

… you did say “keep testing me out”! :wink:

The scriptural Anabaptists were as far as I know, largely committed to ECT. In general, the eschatological expectations among historic Anabaptists were so diverse and functioned so differently that it’s difficult to claim any one position. Menno Simons of whom I harp on about the most, was not of course the first Anabaptist shepherd on the scene — though he did unify many, was certainly the most influential (amongst North Western Anabaptists) and defined much of their later “theology”. Those under his crook most certainly held to eternal torment (though as we discussed elsewhere, Menno always made the effort to qualify this in his writings — “I speak in regard to adults”). Mennonites today continue to believe in an eternal hell, though they maintain no particular view on what that means. The dear Saint Menno was profoundly subjected to what he understood the testimony of scriptures as saying. Regarding an eternal hell, he noted (amongst almost every other doctrine he held) that he “could not comprehend it” but fiercely believed it upon its presence in his Bible. The Anabaptist Hoffman taught eternal torment, as did Staedler of the Hutterites.

Perhaps an association with conditional mortality may have arisen from Zwingli’s insistent and false accusations that the Anabaptists taught soul sleep (just as his colleague Bullinger falsely accused the Anabaptists of teaching universal restoration). Calvin, following Zwingli’s example, later picked up this fodder. The Anabaptist Schiemer explicitly taught soul sleep. Dirk may have. Most of the other known Anabaptists who taught soul-sleep, were Italian and drew their belief from the evangelical rationalism firmly rooted there (amongst the Anabaptists, the Italians were generally the more heterodox/heretical). Finger (2004) suggests that, though quite unlikely, Zwingli’s accusations may have had some substance. But regarding annihilationism, it seems, as far as I know, the scriptural Anabaptists who were generally very diverse on eschatology, were by and large committed to ECT. But I should try and confirm all of this properly as my pool of resources are admittedly small.

My very few discussions with modern Anabaptists and my attempted reading of contemporary theologians, suggests that Anabaptists largely forgo the interminable theologies of the afterlife (and also lower their Christologies to a nominal Trinity), both of which I now prefer to do myself. Anyway, they’re my scattered and somewhat unreliable thoughts. Look forward to reading your past and future posts, Dick!

My husband taught our 3 year-old to sing “Hey…Ho…Let’s go!” (Blitzkrieg Bop) I’m waiting for the day he busts it out at church and finishes off my reputation. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

LOVE THIS!!! Thanks Dick!