The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Quakers

Hi Sass – I’m so glad that you like John Everard; reading him always gave me good courage too. I love the way he pts things . You have done a very good job in kick starting and maintaining this discussion Sass – and I’m sure other fruitful discussions will develop as a result of your initiative. You’ve got courage – and real New-Wave style sassiness . I’m sure you are everyone’s New Wave Princess on this thread! Well I nominate you! Any seconders? (Oops this is just fun and not meant to embarrass you – play along with the joke, and it’s only partly a joke – the respect is real. And get your own back on me at the end of the thread somehow; revenge is a dish best served cold as they say!)

More about New Wave shortly. I need another quick coffee break because I’m thinking through writing something brief about the influence of Eckhart and the Rhineland mystics on the Spirituals – because this is also becoming apparent to me. Pick up the post on this after I’ve had a quick word with Andrew.

Note to Andrew on the Anabaptists

Hi Andrew, I really mean it when I say I need you, as and when you are available (indeed I’ve thought of posting you privately in the past – but have never got round to this). My knowledge of the Anabaptist Scripturals is, at best sketchy (although, of course, I know the Spirituals well). You say that yours is limited – but it is way ahead of mine (and obviously based on personal contacts or at least real imaginative engagement – since you speak of ‘dear’ Menno Simmons as I speak of ‘dear’ Maggie Fell); so all is relative.

The one thing I found out regarding Anabaptist eschatology when researching Universalism in the Church of England is that the Lutheran Augsburg Confession accuses the Anabaptists of what seems like annihilationist beliefs in stating that they teach that there will be an end to the torments of the damned. But this, of course, may well have been a trumped up charge because all such statements from magisterial Protestants need to be viewed with suspicion as persecution texts, in my opinion.

(It was very useful what you had to say before Christmas about Menno Simmons and adult baptism. Also what you said about Munster made me think. I agree it’s completely wrong to call the Munster utopians Anabaptists if you are doing this to tar the other Anabaptist with the same brush (which is why people have often done this). Perhaps they thought they were Anabaptists but then we have the example of the Shakers probably thinking they were true Quakers etc. (There was actually an early Quaker messiah figure named James Nayler – his story is tragic and moving rather than violent and was included in my copy of Christian Faith and Practice as part of the Quaker story and not as an aberration from it – I’ll come to him shortly). All movement have their fringe elements. There was a sectarian Calvinists messianic figure late in Elizabeth I‘s reign who ended up with his armed and fanatical followers holed up in the mermaid Tavern by the Thames (we don’t hear so much about him). And also we have to remember the wholesale slaughter sometimes indulged in by mainstream Protestants and Catholics at this time.

The Munster debacle has become a case study amongst experts on religious movements concerning how the authorities should best deal with armed militants with utopian expectations. When the Branch Davidians – the Seventh Day Adventist sect under David Koreseh – were holed up in Waco Texas, a British expert advised the American authorities not to surround the Davidian’s; she used Musnter as her precedent. However, the views of an American ‘anti-cult’ expert prevailed; the compound was surrounded, just as the armies surrounded Munster, and tragedy unfolded. It si funny how the past is both once gone forever and at the same time still totally relevant.
One thing I think I can about the Anabaptists of Munster however is that they were probably ‘gone to seed’. The charges of extreme licentiousness are standard persecution text slanders and have almost certainly been exaggerated by their enemies. But the charges of extreme cruelty towards women seems harder to explain in an age when cruelty towards women was unexceptional even to their enemies.

Interesting what you have to say about the Italian Anabaptist because I understand the Socinians developed out of them and the Socinians influenced the Seekers who I will consider very soon.

As far as I known the ‘Old Mennonites, at least in the UK, are fairly open in their interpretation of scripture and seem to be engaged in the debates about non-violent atonement and compassionate eschatology that is driven by the Colloquium on Violence and Religion which Rene Girard chairs. There is an excellent radical Christian think tank and newsletter which can be seen at

ekklesia.co.uk/

It is run by Jonathan Bartley a Radical Anglican. It also has Giles Fraser – the Canon of St Pauls’ Cathedral who had to resign because of his moderate support for the London ‘Occupy’ demonstrators – on its staff (Giles Fraser also used to be the via of a Church in Putney where the Levellers debated the extent of Suffrage with Parliament during Cromwell’s Republic). The sites Book Service – Ekklesia Books - is actually the London Mennonite bookshop. So there are lots of cross denominational links between Christian radicals today.

New Wave UR

Isn’t it a hoot that this thread seems to be attracting the UR Punk /New Wave set? Perhaps it’s because the Anabaptist Spirituals were the original ‘UR with attitude set’ – they had to have attitude ion order to be heard in those days
I tried to like hard punk. But it didn’t work. I’m old school and remember the South London set when it first started out over here (that’s the English version of it). It sort of had attitude and was anti authoritarian (although the authority that was being rebelled against was actually the hippies who had grown smug and rich). And we loved reggae - which the hippies and prog-rockers had treated with some disdain. But it wasn’t contaminated by nihilism at first. I remember the little punkette girls I knew being a lot sweeter natured than the hippy girls I knew (including the Jesus freaks) – but the hippies I knew may not have been representative.

When I was a student I had a flatmate who liked the ‘hard punk’ stuff so I heard a lot of it whether I wanted to or not. He used to listen to a band called ‘Crass’ which featured a ‘poet’ named ‘Sister Freedom’ She’d rant and rave against many things including Christianity in an obscene stream of consciousness. And I still wonder, ‘Was she really free; and is just doing the opposite of something in a reactive way ever really that creative?’ My flat mate was certainly of the ‘Ranter’ tendency and had much sport scoffing at me for being a Quaker (not always in a friendly way I might add – but he had his issues). Mind you when he got in trouble with the police once – not for anything serious by just for being a twit – he soon called upon me to give him a character reference on the grounds that I was a Quaker (and Quakers are respected in these matters). Fortunately the case was dismissed because although I like to stick up for my mates – even the odd ones – he did deserve what was coming to him and I was in a bit of a crisis to know what to do.

Of my three favourites New Wavers, Kirsty MacCool died a hero protecting her child from the balder of a speed boat when they were bathing together (God bless her). Polly Styrene also died last year from illness and said lots of loving and hopeful things about humanity before she died and news of her death was greeted by an outpouring of affection over the internet. There’s a lovely video of her being interviewed in her prime on Youtube where she says that people should just be themselves and not worry about following the fashions (and that’s exactly what she did). Do have a look for Old Sobornost if you are following because she sounds just like a secular version of Maggie Fell in what she is saying; see -

youtube.com/watch?v=A_R2UrRME_E

And Billy Bragg is a proper gent. He’s really articulate and calm when being interviewed. I saw him debate Margaret Thatcher’s legacy once with one ‘Sir Peregrine Worsethorne’ – crazy name, crazy guy. ‘Peregrine’ was his usual haughty self –it goes with the name and the title – but Billy remained courteous adn thoughtful, although he didn’t pull any punches. He even won the respect of Richard Little John one of our right wing ‘Shock Jocks’ for this.

So it’s a Punky Reggae party then – ‘You Diggers all stand up for Glory’

All very good wishes

Dick

Sass - thogh you mught fnid this post interesting. It’s about Meister Eckhart (and is meant as a sort of peace offering just in case my leg pulling has been tiresome)

Meister Eckhart was a German Dominican teacher/preacher/theologian of the thirteenth century. Although a Western Catholic, he was profoundly influenced by the theology of the Greek Orthodox Fathers. He wrote fairly conventional scholastic sermons in Latin but he also wrote in the vernacular in High German - and the German stuff was his mystical stuff. Yes, it is his German sermons for ordinary people – and he loved the poor and the illiterate – that contain his famous passages of earthy mystical reflection. Eckhart had a huge influence on the mystical and Christian Humanist currents in Western Christianity. His ideas and images obviously influenced Julian of Norwich and the anonymous author of the Cloud f Unknowing in England for example – and they also crop up in the writings of the Anabaptist Spirituals.

Here are two passages from Eckhart with my commentary

The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God-seed into God.

Note Eckhart’s charming use of the seed metaphor later loved by the early Friends. Eckhart is referring to the Eastern Christian idea of Theosis – namely, that we are made in the image of God and our vocation and destiny is to grow into the likeness of God. This doctrine is easily muddled up with pantheism – which is one of the reasons why I have gone to great pains on this thread to draw a distinction between the doctrine of Theosis as found in the Anabaptist Spirituals and the various types of pantheism (some which may seen harmless but are in fact very dangerous, or at the very least unrealistic about our human experience and therefore unhelpful). ‘Theosis’ doctrine is often spoken of with a certain degree of hyperbole – but in it orthodox forms it never suggests that we can become God in the future or that we already are God now; it simply suggests that we can grow into ever closer communion with God by becoming more and more like God by imitating Jesus. I know that in the mystical theology of the Eastern Church Iraneus supplies the incarnational formula for Theosis -‘that which is not assumed [by God] cannot be redeemed’. So the idea here is that when God assumed humanity in the Incarnation, human nature itself – and not just the human nature of Jesus – was effectively taken up into the Trinity, at least in a potential that awaits the escahaton for full realisation. But this definition of Theosis can again be subject to abuse and misunderstanding if we forget the distinctions made in the historic Creeds between the Persons of the Trinity and the Divine and Human natures of Christ (this is a unity that incorporates relational diversity). In this respect, although I think the Quakers were right in their day to downplay the function of creeds because these had lead to murderous intolerance between Christians – today I think the creeds do have proper function to add clarity and balance to our faith (which is something that Jason often stresses)

We are celebrating the feast of the Eternal Birth which God the Father has borne and never ceases to bear in all eternity… But if it does not take place in me, what use is it to me? Everything lies in this, that it should take place in me.

So there we go – there is a clear lineage from Meister Eckhart to John Everard. No need to say any more on this one.

Eckhart’s mystical writing also had a profound influence on the anonymous German mystic who wrote ‘The Theologica Germanica’. As I mentioned in a previous post, the early Luther was profoundly influenced by Eckhart via the Theologica Germanica; and I will always think it a tragedy that millennial anxiety won the day in Luther’s soul as he seems to have cast aside the more grounded and gentle teachings of the Rhineland mystics.

Here are a couple of brief passages from the ‘Theologica’:

Goodness does not need to enter the soul; for it is there already – yet it is unperceived

So here again we have the doctrine of the Word within the soul of every person.

It has been said, that there is of nothing in hell but self-will. For hell is nothing but self-will and if there were no self-will there would be no Devil and no hell

And here we have the concept of hell found in the mystics. Angelus Silesius – the German/Polish mystical poet of the seventeenth century - puts this concept more succinctly when he writes -

In hell itself hell can your heaven be
If there, says God, you give your will to me

All very good wishes

dick :slight_smile:

Yep. I love the mystical writers. They suggest that we already “have it” and we just need to realize it…Versus we DON’T “have it” and therefore are trying to get something. The former seems to say the work was done, we just need to grow in it. I cannot tell you the profound peace, growth and security I have found from such a simple thing. I have some comments to add concerning your post previous to Eckhart…But that will have to wait until after my whirlwind weekend sits me back down into this chair. :slight_smile: Blessings!

that seems a biblical perspective to me. Paul talks about us already being reconciled, but also that it’s happening now and into the future…
more organic a process than just winning a ticket out of hell…and i daresay more accurately described

Yey (and ‘Yea’) to you both - :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

*Sass is away for the weekend so I won’t post anything directly relevant to the Quakers until she returns. However, as an interlude I will post some extracts from Mark Heim’s excellent book – in my view – ‘Saved from Sacrifice’ (I’ve already posted an extract from this on the Church of England and UR thread concerning Father Albert von Spee who did so much to end the European Witchhunts – and the feedback then was very positive).

The extracts that follow – from pages 252 – 259 of Heims’ study - are relevant to this thread because they consider Christian responses to politics in the light of a non-violent theology of the cross. Heim uses bits of technical language from Rene Girard’s theology – which has inspired him -but these technicalities are not obtrusive and do not obscure his overall accessible meaning. I think the extract is particularly relevant in the context of a discussion of Quakerism and mysticism because Quakers at their best have always rooted their mysticism in universal social concern. The extract is also relevant in being non-dogmatic regarding politics. I’ve revealed my hand as being a paid up member of ‘God’s left wing (as Jim Wallis of the Sojourners would put it). However, left wing solutions are not always the best – and I have great respect for many on the Right wing of politics. What matters in politics in my view is that we care about others and that we are prepared to listen to those with whom we differ. So here goes…*

''Paul is ready to follow Christ into danger, but he realizes he is not obligated to seek it.

The early church at times had to restrain an enthusiasm for martyrdom. The restraint is important… There is no value in gratuitous suffering, and it should not be a Christian ideal. The enthusiasm for the martyrdom was fuelled by many factors, some of which were not peculiar to Christians (such as the idea of a noble death would get you a through ticket to heaven). Even here, however, there is an interesting touch. An administration for the suicide (something Christians were forbidden) was common in the ancient world, and a stoic attitude towards suffering was also a virtue in some philosophies. Christian martyrdom was not distinguished simply by the acceptance of death or the presence of suffering. It required the peculiar additional condition of dying as an explicit victim was an unjust persecution, a confessor bearing witness for Jesus, the innocent scapegoat. This distinctive is location, we might say, location on the side of scapegoats. The church’s argument with those who were avid for martyrdom did not dispute their conclusion about the location faith pointed them to, but objected that no one should seek to occupy it.

If we could take an example much closer to hand, we can think of Martin Luther King, Jr. King can hardly be regarded as a man who sought death or idealized suffering. His program of nonviolent resistance was a way of life and a struggle, a desire neither to inflict not suffer evil. It called African Americans both to refuse to be victims any longer and to refuse to victimize. King’s encounter with Mahatma Gandhi’s thought and work sparked what was at first only a personal realization. Shortly afterward, when King was thrust into the leadership of the Montgomery bus boycott, that realization would become the seed of a transformative social movement. The realization was that non-resistance to evil, which many Christian pacifists took as Jesus’ example on the cross, was not the same thing as nonviolence. Nonviolence could be a strategy, a powerful force for an active resistance and transformation. Innocent suffering was not an intrinsic good, important as one’s own moral purity. Abstaining from violence could be a way of changing the world, not a way of standing aside from it. Here was a way of understanding the cross as a way of life, not as a call to become a victim, but as a mandate to refuse to be a victim. The reason this became the basis for a social movement rather than simply idiosyncratic idea of an individual, rests in the fact that it could be grounded in the existing faith of the African American church and of wider Christian circles, the faith in the crucified one.

David Garrow’s fine study of King is titled Bearing the Cross. The title is wonderfully ambiguous. It can be taken to refer to the suffering that King and others in the movement endured as a result of their stand. It can be taken to refer to an outward sign, in the sense that the civil rights advocates, marched, spoke, and sang with the explicit images of the Christian gospel and of the passion. And it can be taken in yet a further way that combines both: King and his movement held up before the eyes of a nation, side by side, the evident oppression of African Americans and the central symbol of the Christian faith. In that sense King uncovered, bared, the cross and set it before us in a way that made its relevance inescapable. The voice that had spoken to Paul – “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting” – could not be stilled. King was killed as a result of his work. But his driving desire was not to imitate Christ’s crucifixion. It was to imitate Christ’s desire to end sacrifice. His model was not the cross, but the way of life the cross inspired. His public life was a profound struggle to lead a nation to realize its unity without scapegoats. It was a completely shaped by hope for the new community the cross makes possible, what King called “the beloved community”.
When we consider the KKK and their burning crosses, there is a sense in which the civil rights struggle can rightly be seen as a battle over the cross. What side was it on? Who spoke for it? Crucifixion, or in this case assassination, was not needed to make Martin Luther King’s ministry more fully Christian or King’s “imitation” of Jesus any deeper. The effect of the assassination on others, however, is telling, King’s death was like Jesus’ death, a fact so obvious and compelling that it needed no commentary and effectively ended any battle over the cross in the civil rights era. It could not credibly be claimed for the service of racism when it had been demonstrated so dramatically where Jesus’ place would have been in this struggle.

To summarize, in the practice of sacrifice a victims suffering and death is required, false accusation is believed, divine justification for persecution is affirmed, collective agreement is enforced and the victim’s voice is silenced. When the suffering comes in the course of the Christian life, its character should be opposite of this. It should arise only by virtue of resistance to all of these sacrificial elements, not because of their acceptance’’.

''If the first criticism of the theology of the cross was that it invited suffering, the second that it underwrites domination and violence. The supposition that God demands an innocent sacrifice to balance out the guilt of humanity has been attacked in a charter for earthly powers to practise sacrifice in God’s name. The idea that Christ’s death provided an infinite satisfaction to offset humanities offense is taken to empower those who regard themselves as the custodians of that merit with the right to conquer and condemn others. The apparent contradiction in these two criticisms – the cross makes Christians abase themselves and it makes them exalt themselves – does not mean they don’t have substance. Christianity can in fact go wrong in both of these ways. That reflects the paradox of the Gospel narrative itself. If both sides are not in order, then either one or both will go astray.

The way of life that follows on the cross depends on recognition that the death of Jesus ought not to happen. It is not God’s recipe that innocent suffering is the way to restore peace: God’s purpose (to end such a pattern) is superimposed on that event of humanly sanctified violence. Sacrificial scapegoating is not something invented by those under the spell of the passion narratives, but something revealed and opposed there. Just as it is an error to think that it is somehow a Christian requirement to be a victim of redemptive violence, so it is an error to think there is a Christian responsibility to administer it. Christian parenting does not go far astray in this sense will claim some need to apply violent coercion or inflict pain for general redemptive purposes ( to break an ungodly spirit or teach submission) rather than any proportionate specific ones.

Rather than insist on being victims, the Christian way of life calls us to do without victims. Faithfulness is that effort is however no guarantee that one will not encounter suffering. In a parallel way, rather than employ the structures of sacrificial violence, the Christian way of life calls us to find alternative forms to build community. Faithfulness is that effort, however, does not mean that valid human order is emptied of all elements of coercion.

Some critical reconstructions (or rejections) of the theology of the cross conclude that the only authentic Christian life is one of absolute pacifism or total nonviolence. This conclusion may correct, but if so it needs more than an analysis of the cross to establish it. I have stressed that the cross does not in principle address all suffering, nor does it address all conceivable violence. Its direct relevance to those must be traced from its primary focus on scapegoating sacrifice and on tributary forms of mimetic conflict that lead it on. In confronting this collectively sanctioned violence from the place of the suffering victim, God neither sanctified all suffering nor condemned all collective sanction.

“Scapegoating” and “sacrifice” are terms we have applied to cases other than ritual or cultic ones. Indeed, following Girard, I have argued that the ritual and cultic practises in fact stem from (or are assimilated to) a prior kind of social violence. Such supposed “founding murders” or recurrent social dynamics have a very particular profile. Not all violence or coercion falls within that profile. It is a measure of the impact of the biblical tradition that in Western though particularly there are strong tendencies to collapse the two.

Christian theology throughout its history has had to make assessments. Where does the pattern of sacrificial violence apply, though we may not even realize it? And where is that not appropriate category? There are “private” forms of sin, like dishonesty or theft or one person’s physical assault on another. Christian life and faith certainly address these wrongs. But they are not the same wrong as sacred violence, even if these personal sins feed in various ways into the social dynamics that support that violence. And there are dimensions of collective coercion, even violence, that are not sacrificial in the sense in which I’ve been speaking. They may or may not be consistent with the Christian way of life, but that cannot be decided simply by reference to the distinctive meaning of the cross we have explored.

The levelling of taxes is a coercive collective act, and the enforcement of that act may involve imprisonment or even bodily violence against those who resist it. But a tax code does not in principle constitute sacrificial violence. Nor does an economic structure in which some people succeed more than others. Nor does a legal system in which after due process people can be deprived of property and liberty. Nor does abortion. Nor does a police force that at the extreme exercises deadly force. Now does war. 

Christians can argue theologically for or against participation in any of these structures or activities, without necessarily making reference to the cross’’.

''The trajectory of the cross in history is such that images like the one I just described increasingly strikes us as protest. But taken alone, in conjunction with certain kinds of theologies, the representations could be taken as counsels of resignation or invitations to imitate Christ’s supposed docile submission to oppression. This points up the fact that concrete images of the crucifixion are liable to the same ambiguity that attaches to any images of suffering. This was powerfully reflected in the controversy surrounding Edwina Sandy’s 1975 sculpture Christa, which depicted a partially nude female form in the traditional crucifix pose. Many objected to the image as a departure from tradition and an assault on the Christological particularly of Christian faith. But it is also criticized variously as an objectification of women, an incitement to abuse, or an invitation to women to idealize their own suffering. When presented with a relatively novel image like this, our visceral responses testify to the way the liberating power of the cross is entangled with sacrificial and mythical tendencies. Those who objected to the sculpture because it did not represent the historical Jesus, and who wanted no explicit parallels, missed the point that part of the saving effect in that unique death was enabling us to see others in the same place. Thos who dismissed the objections, and would willingly have replaced focal emphasis on the cross of Jesus with an array of representations of the oppressed, misunderstood the ambiguous nature of images suffering in themselves.

Images of violation, suffering, and condemnation can readily become incitement or prurient stimulation. Without a tie to the particular objectivity of God’s death on the cross, the sight of a suffering victim from my group can very easily arouse only a desire for retribution. It is exhibited as an atrocity that reinforces the unity of our rage against our enemies. Such images, whatever else may be said, are not equivalents to the cross. For an integral element of the cross is that we cannot attribute it only to others. Without a tie to the cross of Jesus, the sight of a suffering victim who is outside my won circle of identity can all too easily arouse a kind of perverse satisfaction, a sense of just condemnation, or a distanced indifference. This is no equivalent to the cross either. For another integral element is that we must identify with its victim.

There will be those who reject the cross for just the reasons noted. Some advocates of the oppressed will reject it because they believe no shadow of hesitation should fall on the white-hot anger of the aggrieved against their oppressors. And there will be those who stand in positions of advantage and power who will reject it for essentially the same reason, because no matter the legitimate case they make for the relative justice and peace of their communities, the cross insistently requires them to ask anew, who are our victims? If when we look at the cross we see only and always the face of Jesus, its saving power has not fully reached us. If it had, we would be able to see others. But if we substitute only our preferred others, we have warded off its power as well. To be converted is to be able to see ourselves and those we love with Christ. But it is no less to be able to see our own faces in the crowd, a crowd gathered against a Christ who looks like a stranger or an enemy.

For the Christian life generally, and particularly for understanding the cross, the crucial thing is not imitation of Jesus’ actions, the formation of our intentions and behaviour through the model of Jesus’ desire. A consistent desire that animates Jesus’ ministerial life, his antisacrificial death, and his risen witness is the desire to overcome scapegoating as the means of social reconciliation. This is the subjectivity that unifies Jesus’ resolution to go to the cross and his anguished recoil from it that unifies the Gospels’ testimony that his death saves the world and is an evil that must be reversed. This is the example that calls Christians to remember Christ’s death in order to avert others, and exhibits the truth of sacrifice in order to end it. There is in Jesus no desire for death, and no desire for suffering. The reluctance, fear, anguish, and desolation that the passion narratives show us are precious testimony on this point. If we want to become “like him in death,” then the likeness we must imitate is the longing to empty the world of crosses.

The victims of sacrifice die to keep things the same – to restore communal peace in the face of conflict and to validate yet again the ancient solution to social crisis, the eternal return of the scapegoating. Christ died as such a victim, subject to the same intention on the part of his executioners, but without sharing it. His death was an act of resistance to scapegoating death, not an endorsement of it. He died to change things, most specifically to end this way of keeping the peace. He died to change the repetitive dying to maintain the world.

Those who would follow his teaching and his desire and his example, then, should have no desire to join him on the cross. If we did have such an aim, then Christ’s death would not be in vein. The intended reign of God is a life without crosses, peace without scapegoats. Short of the reign of God, may the faithful Christian life lead to suffering? May it bring the specific suffering of the scapegoat or of those who cross to the side of scapegoats? Yes. The only redemptive about such suffering is that it participates in Christ’s reversal of the redemptive violence the world practices, arbitrary victimization to heal our discord. It is Christlike only if it opposes suffering. It is acceptable only if it is resistance. It is legitimate only if its desire is to end what it must endure’’.

I’m baaaack! Fire when ready!

OK Sass - will start posting tomorrow. Hope you had a good weekend. We had our London UR get together yesterday - and it was a really pleasant evening.

Dick :slight_smile:

Hi Sass - just need a quick breather. I’ve just recieved the typed up stuff from my friend Kelly and need to have a think about how to present this in narrtive form with some analysis. Also, my Mum is beginning ot improve at last and I need to make some arangements for her coming home. Hope to be back on track by tommorow

Blessings

Dick :slight_smile:

No problem brother. So glad to hear your Mom is coming home…Great news!

OK Sister Sass– thank you so much for the kind wishes; here’s another post about further Anabaptist spiritual influences on the Quakers -

The Family of Love

(This note is a modified edition fo a post on the C of E and NUiverlsiam thread - but the following notes on Boehme and The Seekers are new)

The Family of Love, originally a Dutch Anabaptist Spiritual sect, were the first Universalist sect in England and had a following mainly among the gentry during the reigns of Elizabeth I and James I. They were secret about their beliefs and were not radical in their social teachings. Perhaps this is because they were Spiritualists in a hostile world before the time was ripe.The ‘Familist’s’ took their inspiration from the writings of Hendrick Niclaes (or ‘H.N.’ as they referred to him anonymously). Niclaes was a Dutch Anabaptist of the ‘Spiritualist’ tradition – but with some important differences from the mainstream Spiritualist tradition of Hans Denck and Sebastian Frank.

Niclaes writings are, apparently, difficult to translate. He had no respect for the discipline of academic discourse and his style is often florid and obscure. To my mind the salient points of his teachings are as follows: I note that Christopher Marsh, who has written the standard text on the Family and who is my chief source of information, is a social historian - whereas I guess I am a historian of the study of religion . So I have recognised themes of ‘theosis’ and ‘realized eschatology’ etc in Niclaes - where Marsh remains perplexed because I think I can clearly see connections between his writings and the wider Anabaptist Spiritual tradition.

Niclaes teaches that, ‘Christ’s suffering, though absolutely vital, could not be sufficient in itself. Something positive is required of us’ (Marsh, p.19)

He teaches that it is required of us that ‘the believer should be taught to empathise with Christ, learning ‘to take up his cross on him to follow after Christ his Saviour in his suffering and death on the cross’. Through suffering with Christ, and sharing in his crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection and ascension H.N. tells his children that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost and the heavenly fellowship ‘will inhabit you, and live and walk in you’. (Marsh p. 21)

He teaches on the imitation of Christ in a way that implies a focus of ‘realised eschatology’. Heaven and hell are states of being in this life now (and hell is the pains of a troubled conscience). Judgement is now as we respond or turn away from the Christ in us, and resurrection and ascension are likewise now as we are transformed from the old Adam into the new. This is not to say that there is no life to come – there is no suggestion of this in Niclaes. However the important thing is that eternal life should begin now in our experience and not be dependent on definitions and book learning.

He describes the goal of this process as being ‘godded with God’ – and for this reason the Familists in England were accused of Perfectionism leading to antinomianism, allowing them to sin without scruple. However there is no evidence of them being antinomians and their perfectionism actually seems more akin to the Orthodox belief of ‘theosis’ – of the believer/disciple gradually being transformed from the image into the likeness of God.

He implores human beings to transcend their confessional divisions and their religious violence. As Marsh tells us: ‘The shedding of blood was to cease, as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Turks and heathens responded to the call’ (Marsh p.23). At times Niclaes seems to be holding out a universal hope that as the message of Love is spread the existing forms of religion will reform from within and humanity as whole will be redeemed.

He teaches that members of the Family should live in love and gentle peace with their fellow men and should obey the laws and the magistrates of the realm in which they live. However, there is also a note of inconsistency/ double vision in his emphasis that his message should be passed on very carefully and in secret. And sometimes Niclaes speaks as if the people of this world who are not members of the Family are perishing in their own violence (but this could simply be interpreted as meaning that those who are not yet of the Family are still perishing inasmuch as they are still living violent lives).

Finally he sometimes speaks as if he has quasi-Messianic status – and that his words have sounded the last trump. However, given his emphasis on devotion to Christ – and not on devotion to Niclaes – this does seem to be hyperbole. He seems to me to be claiming that he has understood the inner meaning of the Gospel against the mainstream traditions of Protestantism and that his works promote a true and restored faith in Christ. I think he probably saw himself as a prophet to whom the original and restored meaning of Christ’s gospel had been revealed to correct the distortions of the orthodox Protestants (and I note that there are certainly some striking passages in Luther where Luther makes similar claims for himself but this time in terms of hi being the prophet correcting the distortions of Romish doctrine).

George Fox’s family owned some of the writings of Niclaes – so the influence of the Familist tradition on the early Friends seems very probable.

Boehme

Keith Thomas has demonstrated in his classic ‘Religion and the Decline of Magic’ that the end of the Old Catholic Sacramental tradition in Protestant countries and anxiety about its questioned efficacy in Catholic countries led many people into superstition. During the Renaissance and the Reformation – in an increasingly uncertain world – there was a huge upsurge of interest in predictive astrology amongst both Catholics and Protestants, and in sympathies magic, in both the literate and the illiterate, the godly and the ungodly; this was part and parcel of an age of profound anxiety when determinism in theology and philosophy was the dominant theme. The German theosopher Jackob Boehme died in 1624, the same year that George Fox was born. His writings expound a complex cosmology, that often baffles me and is clearly influenced by Renaissance Neo-Platonism and early modern science (when the line between science and magic was not clearly drawn). However his basic teachings are very much in line with the Anabaptist Spirituals on theosis and with his stress compassion for the poor. I note that he uses astrological symbolism in his writings but only to suggest that in the New Adam the stars that once seemed oppressive Powers and Principalities become internalised and under our control again. Likewise he uses complex alchemical symbolism – but he puts this in the service of describing the transformation of the Old Adam into the New Adam in theosis rather to the purpose exciting speculation about the prospect of turning base metal into gold.

Boehme’s works circulated in England during the Civil War; they were known to John Everard and to some of the early Quakers. Some of the early Friends, including George Fox, speak of having openings into the secrets of nature during their spiritual conversion – and seeing the ‘divine signatures’ in created things (which is clearly a legacy of Boehme). There is nothing strange or occult about this. It is simply seeing nature with the eyes of an artist as shot through with Glory and worthy of a response of wonder and praise to nature’s Creator. Blake wrote of this way of seeing that ‘A tree that moves one man to tears of joy, is to another just a green thing that stands in the way’.

Boehme’s writings greatly influenced William Blake in the eighteenth century, some of the Keswick convention Universalists’ in the Holiness movement of the nineteenth century, and Nicholas Berdyaev in the twentieth century (Berdyaev combines the Universalism of both the Eastern and Western traditions in his thinking). The greatest and clearest exponent of Boehme was the Anglican Universalist clergyman William Law. He took Boehme and translated him from the ‘funky idiom’ into plain English. It was William Law said some magnificently wise things like –‘ Religion can actually make people worse than they are in their natural state if it persuades them to turn to God without first turning from Self’ (and that’s worth meditating on long and hard). Law also greatly influenced the British Quakers in the eighteenth century.

The Seekers

The Seekers in England, during the Civil War, were a Socinian Universalist sect who argued for religious and political liberty from their Universalist principles. Many Seekers eventually became Quakers and those who did not still turned out in numbers later for George Fox’s funeral. So there was common ground between early Friends and the Seekers. The early Quaker’s saw Christian practice as more important than Christian doctrine.

The Socinians were/are the Unitarians who have roots in the Italian Anabaptist tradition and in Christian Humanist Scholarship. Unlike their Biblicist Arian Universalist brothers and sisters – who were annihilationists (and still are today in the guise of the Christadelphians and Jehovah’s Witnesses) – the Socinians were/are Universalists (although many of their successors have embraced a woolly pantheism that bypasses notions of redemption altogether). Of course Socinianism is strictly heretical in terms of orthodox Christian Trinitarianism – but I think that Karl Barth was right when he suggested that we can learn from ‘our’ heretics because what they overemphasise in their doctrine is often areaction to an orthodoxy that is missing something important in its balance of doctrine. At the time when Socinianism came into being ‘orthodox’ Protestantism was turning Jesus as the Incarnate Christ into an abstract cipher for part of a divine transaction of forensic retributive justice – and it is no wonder, in this light, that orthodox Protestantism was a persecuting faith. By way of contrast, the Socinian’s in their ‘heretical’ teachings gave proper emphasis to the human Jesus who felt real hunger, real need of human friendship and intimacy, felt the need to get away from the crowds that gathered around him, became angry at injustice, wept for sorrow over the impending fate of Jerusalem, shed un-macho sweat drops of blood in anticipation of his impending passion, and suffered, died and was buried before rising again from the dead. The Socinians were also Universalists, wrote against persecution and had a programme for social reform.

There were many fruitful points of collaboration between the Socinians and orthodox Universalists and near Universalists in seventeenth century Europe. The Dutch Socinians collaborated with the Dutch Armenians under Episcopus in the seventeenth century to develop scholarly scriptural and moral arguments against ECT in the seventeenth century. The Seekers were the first flowers of English Socinianism.

Seeker writings on religious tolerance had a profound influence on Roger Williams who started life in England as a Calvinist Particular Baptist. Williams immigrated to America and became for a time Governor of Rhode Island where his policies of religious tolerance made it a haven for Jews, Quakers and other non-conformists - and even Deists - from Puritan Calvinist persecution. His experience as an Independent nit eh English Civil War led him to formulate arguments for the separation of Church and State in germinal form that eventually became central to the American constitution (which has served America well and long may this continue!). Williams also pursued enlightened and fair policies towards the Native Americas (as the Quaker William Penn did later in the colony of Pennsylvania). He learned the language of the local Native Americans and wrote and published ‘A Key Into the Language of America’ (1643) which was an instant “best-seller”, and gave Williams a large and favorable reputation. This little book was the first dictionary of any Indian tongue in the English language. in July 1644 Williams published his most famous book, The Bloody Tenent of Persecution for Cause of Conscience. This produced a great uproar in England, and the Calvinist/Presbyterian Parliament responded in August by ordering the book to be burned by the public hangman (and Williams would probably have paid with his life if he had not been in America at the time).

Williams ended his life no longer affiliated to any particular Protestant sect and awaited a new revelation of pure Christian religion in the same way as the Collegiant Spiritual Anabaptists had waited in silence to receive again the truth of Holy communion as the Peace of Christ. Williams was not a Universalist or a Socinian explicitly – and probably hated the association with the Seekers with which he was often besmirched. However, he certainly had read the literature of the Socinian Seekers and, at least unconsciously, had been influence profoundly by them.

Hi Dick. Love the Roger Williams stuff on the separation of church and state and LOVE LOVE LOVE the William Law quote about religion making people worse…BOY DO I KNOW SOME PEOPLE THAT APPLIES TO! Which means, of course, I need to be looking for that in ME! :blush: Gee thanks… Love you Brother! :slight_smile:

great stuff, Dick! keep it coming. i particularly liked the stuff on Boehme, William Law (as Sass quoted: wow :astonished: ) and Roger Williams

This thread is about the Quakers so I’ve just sketched the influence of the Anabaptist Spirituals here – and indeed I’m learning more about them as I’m doing my posts (especially about the ‘Kentish Freewillers’ – an irritant to the Reformed Protestants during the reign of Bloody Mary - who cherished Eckhart, The Cloud and Thomas a Kempis’ ‘Imitation of Christ’ as influences – the last work was used daily by C.S. Lewis in his prayerful meditations). I may one day just do a thread on the Spirituals and Radicals – let’s see. For the moment, since there was some interest in my previous post, here are a few more titbits about the Spirituals and their influence on the Quakers.

Roger Williams (again)

I will look at Roger Williams in more detail when I come to do the thread on the Athanasian Creed over at Ecclesiology (and please do join me there when I do). Suffice to say at the moment that I feel he is par of our story. He’s certainly part of the Quaker’s story because of the connection with the Seekers and because when he was Governor of Rhode Island it was the one place in the Christian world in which Quakers could worship unmolested. Also William Penn was clearly influenced by Williams when drawing up the Quaker constitution for Pennsylvania.

Williams was not a Universalist as such but his ECT beliefs had a curious twist. Before Williams’ day believers in ECT had seen their enterprise of persecuting fellow Christians as an expression of God’s Wrath. However, Williams saw God’s wrath as being upon the persecutors. I see Williams as a transitional figure between an ethic of persecution and retribution and an ethic of universal compassion and tolerance – perhaps he realised his a the end of his life when he waited for fresh Light like the Seekers who had influenced him.

George Fox and the Collegiants

Remember that the Collegiants were the first Anabaptist Spiritual group to worship in silence. George Fox had a personal interview with Galenus Abrahams the leader of the Dutch Collegiants in 1677. Rufus Jones, the Quaker scholar, tells us that this meeting was not very satisfactory. Fox tells us in his journal that, ‘he found this notable teacher very high and shy, so that he would not let me touch him nor look upon him, but he bid me keep my eyes off him, for he said they pierced him!’ [Oh dear, George could throw his charisma around a little too forcefully from time to time it would appear! – and could sometimes trust too much in it, it would seem!]. ‘But at a later visit, in 1684, Fox found the Collegiant doctor, now venerable with years, “very loving and tender.” “He confessed in some measure to truth,” Fox says, “and we parted very lovingly.” At a meeting held in Amsterdam a few weeks later, Abrahams was among the large group of attenders, and “was very attentive to the testimony of truth,” and, when the meeting was over, Fox says, “he came a got me by the hand very lovingly,2 and seemed no longer afraid of the Quaker’s piercing eyes”. (or perhaps Abrahams had just got used to the idea of George and his charisma and was able to see behind this to the Quaker’s true gentleness and loving kindness, despite the intimidating presence).

Again I reflect that it is good that Fox was moderated by gentler Friends including Maggie Fell. Here is what an early Friend William Caton wrote of her in 1652:

*I was cherished and encouraged in the way of life by my entirely beloved friend Margaret Fell, who was a tender-hearted nursing-mother cared for me as if I had been one of her own children; oh, the kindness, the respect and friendship which she showed me ought never to be forgotten by me *

Jackob Boehme (again)

Jackob Boehme was not a Universalist himself but his followers and interpreters soon became Universalists. Put simply – or as best as I can do – he taught that everything in the universe emanates from God and bears a seed/signature of divinity within it – the light Principle. This is not simply a seed of love and light because there is wrath and dark fire – the dark Principle - even in God; but wrath never shows itself in God because it is always harmonised with the light as pure Love. However, in human beings this spark of wrath which is the root of our individuality, breaks away from the light and becomes selfish will. We are free to turn back again to the light and re-harmonise our wrath with our light by entering into the process of conversion in Christ. Or we are free to stay in our wrath and to die in our wrath God respects our decision either way.

Anyway Boehme’s interpreters soon became convinced that since all comes from God who is pure Love and pure Goodwill in the end all will return to God’s harmony and the wrath of the dark Principle will again be hidden in Love. Rufus Jones tells us that Boehme teaches:

*‘You are a growing branch of the life tree of God in Christ, in whom all the children of God are also branches’ and he adds that here is “no other faith that saves except Christ in us,” the Life of our lives…[Jones now] Here then, in the creation and formation of this organic Life Tree the universe attains its ultimate goal. It is wholly an achievement of freewill, of holy choice. The dark Principle is not annihilated…but the Heart of God moves ever on in a steadily growing triumph, binding soul after soul in to the Divine Tree of the Light Universe, in a unity that is not now the unity of negation and undiffferentiation – as in classic pantheism - but a unity of many wills united in a spirit of concord and love, many persons formed by holy desire unto one unbroken symphony as harps of God’. *

(Rufus Jones is a lot clearer than Boehme is in his raw and un-interpreted form!)

As I hinted in my last post Boehme also taught that the soul in which the Light Principle has been regenerated has access to a vision of ‘virgin nature’ in its un-fallen state. Fox seems to have know of this teaching for he wrote in this Journal in 1647:

Now when I was come up in the spirit through the flaming sword up into the paradise of God, all thing s were new, and all creation gave another smell unto me than before, beyond what words can utter

This vision of virgin nature is wonderfully expressed in the writings of the seventeenth century Anglican/Church of England minister Thomas Traherne:

‘Your enjoyment of the World is never right till every morning you awake in Heaven; see yourself in your Father’s Palace, and look upon the earth and air as celestial joys, having such reverend esteem of all, as if you were among the Angels. The bride of a monarch, in her husband’s chamber, hath no such causes of delight as you.’

You never enjoy the world aright till the sea itself floweth in your veins, till you are clothed with the heavens and crowned with the stars; and perceive yourself to be the sole heir of the whole world, and more than so, because men are in it who are every one sole heirs as well as you. Till you can sing and rejoice and delight in God, as misers do in gold, and kings in sceptres, you can never enjoy the world…’

The Corn was Orient and Immortal Wheat which never should be reaped, nor was ever sown. I thought it had stood from Everlasting to Everlasting. The Dust and the Stones of the Street were as precious as Gold. The Gates were at first the end of the World, the Green Trees when I saw them first through the Gates Transported and Ravished me; their Sweetness and unusual Beauty made my heart to leap, and almost mad with Ecstasy, they were such strange and Wonderful Things; The Men! O what Venerable and Reverend Creatures did the Aged seem! Immortal Cherubims! And the young Men Glittering and Sparkling Angels and Maids strange Seraphic Pieces of Life and Beauty! Boys and Girls Tumbling in the Street and Playing, were moving Jewels. I knew not that they were born or should die…’

(Thomas Traherne: Centuries of Meditation)

I have never seen this clearly – but I’m sure all of us have had our intimations and I think of mine when singing the hymn ‘Morning has broken’. Any small openings I have had I count not as marks of special divine favour but as enjoyment that I should share.

Turning to God; turning from self

A word about turning to God without turning from self; yes dear Sister Sass – and any others reading this thread - William Law’s lesson is one that I also need to apply to myself at least a thousand times a day; it’s a difficult one to learn with one step back for each two forwards. As far as I am concerned many persons and traditions in Christianity – including some of the great mystics – have got this one a little wrong actually. Turning from self – or self ‘noughting’ – often becomes confused with self despising. Even St John of the Cross at one point advised us to seek out all that is most disgusting in life as a method of self humiliation. And I remember speaking to a young Catholic man once who did voluntary work in a hospital and who spoke of how dressing bed sores was for him a means to self humiliation (and he was not representative of the Catholics I have known and loved). Well I think that his focus should have been on helping those with the bed sores in acts of compassion rather than on humiliating his self. There have been many great self haters in Christianity.

But Jesus told us only that we must ‘love our neighbour as our self’ – so proper self love is the condition for neighbour love in Jesus’ teaching. But this self needs to become compassionate and ‘all embracing’ like our heavenly Father is ‘all embracing’. The movement away from ‘self’ is an extraverted one –reaching outwards to embrace all – rather than an turning inwards with introverted self loathing. The ‘I’ of the small and isolated self disappears through expansion rather than contraction into an ever wider communion in which it still keeps its identity. From this perspective Jesus words about us losing our self to find our self makes complete sense to me – as do his words about us taking up our cross to follow him; we are to share in and bear with the sorrows as well as the joys of the world as he did with a sincere and joyful heart that can cope with suffering through faith in God’s love.

Here are some appropriate words from Mother Julian of Norwich –

Often our trust is not full. We are not certain that God hears us because we consider ourselves worthless and as nothing. This is ridiculous and the cause of our weakness. I have felt this way myself.

And

It is natural for the child not to despair of the mother’s love. It is natural for the child not to be overconfident. It is natural for the child to love the mother and each brother and sister. I understand no higher state in this life than childhood with its minimum of capability and skill until the time that our gracious Mother has led us to our Father’s joy.
I understand that all the blessed children who come out of God by Nature will be returned to God by Grace.

All very good wishes

Dick

Hi. A fine point about “self naughting”. Ha, ha, I dabbled in this a bit myself! Not so much like you say in the wrong way, self hatred, but more to disconnect from the ego self. After reading many writings by the classic Catholic mystics, I began to look for ways to let my EGO be humiliated. I broke a tooth for example. Instead of rushing to the dentist right away, I just lived with it for a few days. Oh it was hard…Hard to be seen like that. BUT, those little things worked something big IN me. 80 grit sandpaper on my pride. It’s like working out. I can practice little things like that ON PURPOSE and when someone offends me…I can actually take it better and not react in an unwise manner. That feeling of being humbled…Is a great friend to the true seeker. :wink:

interesting stuff about the mis-alligned light and dark sparks!
obviously John says that God has no darkness in Him at all, but that is talking about sin, or at least i think so. but one wonders what the dark spark that Boehme spoke of relates to, specifically? i think there’s something about that that rings true, but i need to understand it more

Hi Both – I’m no expert on Boehme; I think we need to know a wee bit about him because he’s important in the history of Universalism in the West, but a little of him goes a long way, in my view. (I remember when I used to go to a Church in the heart of London seeing a note on the notice board asking if anyone was interested in starting a study group on Boehme’s writings, and I thought ‘I’m keeping my mouth shut’ – you see Boehme also appeals to esotericists who love him simply because he is so obscure and turn him into an exclusive club!).

All that I can say here is that in John’s prologue ‘The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not overcome/comprehend it’. Fox likewise speaks of seeing a great ocean of light and love that overcomes a great ocean of darkness. Boehme goes a little further than this – he gives some sort of explanation of why darkness exists in the first place (and perhaps comes a little close to Gnosticism in speculating about this – but he certainly stops short of Gnosticism). For him the Darkness exists to be redeemed by the Light. God allows Darkness to become separated from the Light in the first place so that a Universe can exist in freedom separate from God.

Boehme wrote that

The anger in the kingdom of God is the great wondrous joy, where nothing of the anger is perceived

And

The light of meekness holds the darkness captive, and dwells in the darkness

This is mystical poetry but it seems to me that in his eschatology Boehme is pointing to the same things that a Universalist reading of the Bible does – that is that in the end the evil and the wicked are to be transformed rather than destroyed. (By the way I actually prefer Julian of Norwich’s ability to live with limited knowledge and questions about ‘the goal of redemption’ to Boehme’s detailed visionary speculations – but I still think Boehme is important historically).

The dialogue on this thread is particularly fascinating because it works on a number of levels (all initiated by Sass).

On one level we are discussing the history of universalism with special reference to the Quakers – and that means we have to look at evidence in a reasonably hard headed way and make appropriate connections. I consider the skills of a historian to be much like the skills of a cab driver – you have to know your way round and know the most intelligent ways to get from A to B (and it helps if you can spin and good tale to keep passengers entertained). On this level of the conversation I’m always keen to get others involved with the map reading or taking a turn at driving (we are talking about a topic that is obscure to most people on this site –but it will become less obscure)

On another level we are talking about the Christina mystical tradition and our personal experiences of this tradition (these will differ, of course). I’m also thinking of other people reading this thread too and what their experiences might be. At the moment I’m building up the narrative here to look at three Quakers – James Nayler, John Woolman and Elizabeth Fry - who wrote about self naughting in different ways, and had both profound and profoundly differing experiences of this; so it has been important to talk about this issue a little now in preparation. Obviously I have an opinion on this matter – that a real distinction needs to be drawn between self naughting and self despising. The confusion is always a danger, especially for women I think – because patriarchy is still strong (although I think you can hold your own Sass – and hope knowing that we are all cheering for you helps ). The stories of the three women I’ve known/know who have been really badly damaged and abused by authoritarian religion in every imaginable way (two Christian and one Islamic), make me always want to state my case clearly about these matters - it was because they despised themselves that they initially lacked the courage to get out of abusive situations. I hope that one thing people may get from reading this thread is a spur to live with the question of how self despising and true dying to self are different and/or how they are similar and to a spur to test this question out through experience.

Oh by the way – regarding my ‘visionary experiences:’ I had a lot of these when I was in my early teens –all very vivid, some beautiful and some terrifying. It transpired that I was suffering from temporal lobe epilepsy. I was glad that medication put a stop to the visions because they were making life difficult for me. I reckon my best visionary experience –regarding nature – came later in life when a trained artist helped me to understand all the different shades of colour in a field of grass (colours that I was simply unaware of). Seeing thing with the eyes of love – first thought the eyes of another lover -expanded my awareness and unlike my earlier visions which were involuntary and impersonal, I was able to integrate this later experience into my enlarged but still individual ‘self’.

All the best

Dick

Sass – have been thinking about you. I hope my concern over how self naughting is interpreted does not seem like a put down. Love you too Sister – and appearing to be Mr High and Mighty is the last thing I want, and you are perfectly entitled to think as seems right to you. Obviously I hope that a too severe interpretation of self naughting is never going to become a burden for you – so I raise questions for this reason and advocate the gentler way of Mother Julian cordially. As I said I also think for some people seeing self naughting understood in a certain way can be disastrous so I just seek to balance things in our conversations just in case any people of severely cast down spirits are reading this thread. Perhaps I am a beetling fuss body after all – but my intention is good.

James (but also Sass and anyone else interested)

Let’s talk further about Boehme sometime – I don’t mena to close down a conversation; just want to press on with the Quakers. Yes Boehme is obscure and appeals sometimes to elitists in my experience. However, he also had profound things to say and influenced great thinkers like Berdyaev (and I also note that he influenced Emerson and the Transcendentalists). From reading Rufus Jones I also note that Boehme said much of good sense about how were are to treat out neighbours and live in peace together.

In scripture and experience God is Light; however the God of light also creates both light and darkness, and good and evil (‘I the Lord do all these things’) – so Boehme was working with this paradox. Jung also worked with this paradox and came up with the idea that evil should somehow be taken up into Godhead as the shadow side of Divinity. The Jewish mystic Martin Buber criticised Jung for this, rightly in my view. For this notion of Jung’s is pure pantheism where evil also becomes divine – and perhaps this was one reason why Jung was initially so enthusiastic about Nazism as a manifestation of the collective unconscious; but then it is perhaps too much to expect that Jung, an undoubted genius in his field, would also be politically astute).

Boehme and his followers are proposing something rather different to Jung. It’s more akin to the Jewish tradition that when God created man he put two inclinations into Adam’s heart – the good inclination of gentleness, loving kindness, mercy etc…, and the evil inclination of self assertion, aggression, sexual desire etc. And Jewish tradition tells us that God counted both inclinations as very good, but decreed to Adam that ‘when the evil inclination whispers in your ear, serve God with it’.

Here are some quotations from interpreters and followers of Boehme to act as seed thoughts for the future:

That which in a devil is an evil selfishness, a wrathful fire, a stinging motion, is in a holy angel the everlasting kindling of a divine life, the strong birth of a heavenly love, it is a real cause of an ever-springing, ever-triumphing joyfulness, and ever increasing sensibility of bliss. Take away the working, contending nature of the first qualities, which in a devil are only a serpentine selfishness, wrath, fire, and stinging motion; take away these I say, from holy angels, and you leave them neither light, nor love, nor heavenly glory, nothing for the birth of the Son and Holy Spirit to rise up in.

(William Law)

Close to God’s throne the happy angels play;
Beelzebub’s as near, but turns away

(Johann Scheffler – the ‘Angelic Silesian’)

*According to Boehme, created in the image of God, man makes his way through the world, striving to achieve a middle ground between two dangerous possibilities: that of failing to develop his individuality sufficiently and, at the opposite extreme, of becoming so self willed that pride triumphs and the soul falls as did Lucifer. It is the latter possibility that we usually identify with evil, but the first can provide equally great a threat…

Either of these two possibilities can open the soul to ‘hardening and darkening’. But both impulses – that of self-doubt and inferiority, and that of arrogance – are necessary to a degree [when properly balanced] as the soul struggles to gain strength and self knowledge. As we seek to help each other, as well as ourselves, we should keep in mind the image of the ideal state of equilibrium in which recognition of one’s power and worth is balanced by a realization of one’s place and purpose as a servant and lover of God and a facilitator of God seed, within the great Body of Christ of which we are all part.

If God has created the universe for the purpose of seeing and knowing Himself, loving and being loved ever striving to differentiate Himself in all the manifold possibilities of the natural world, then man, as His mirror, has the obligation to do the same. He must develop his capacities to the utmost, discovering, imagining, creating, ion the intellectual level, and entering into a wide range of relationships to develop his emotional and spiritual potentials and those of his neighbours.*

(Ann Liem, from the Pendle Hill Pamphlet, ‘Boehme’s Insights into the Challenge of Evil’)

No worries, brother. I didn’t take it that way at all.

We are in complete agreement. I saw what you wrote as drawing a distinction between right practice and wrong practice. The only place we may differ is that while you provided and example of the wrong (the bedsore man), a definition of a right practice may be helpful for those reading as well. To me self naughting in it’s proper fashion is nothing more than allowing yourself to be humbled…As a practice. It may be yielding to my husband when I know he’s wrong. It may be me not taking credit for something I’ve done well, it may be letting others think bad of me without trying to vindicate myself. The point is that all of this is done WITH AWARENESS. I LOOK for the opportunities.

This is a FAR cry from being a flagellant. The point might be made also that this is practiced OUTSIDE Christian circles as well. Teenagers “cutting” themselves for example. There is no benefit to this. This has nothing to do with loosening the bonds of the ego. It’s pure self hatred which is…Demonic. The confusion comes when we ask “What is self?” There is the EGO self, which is the “Selfish self” that is only concerned with being served and being seen. Then there is the “real” self, the pure being who sees no distinction between it it and others. The one we were even before our name was dry on our birth certificate. A whole, perfect complete being unaffected by the world. Without a “story”, without pretense, without care. Without anything to prove…Sigh.

Anyway, I’ll get into the meat of the rest of your post when I have more time. I just wanted to make sure you knew I didn’t see anything even remotely negative in what you wrote, ok? Blessings brother!

Sass -you are a treasure. I told you I was annoying (comepltely over sensistive one minute, and a wanton churl the next); so take heart from the old Jewish Proverb - ‘Love your neighbour, even when he plays the trombone!’

Blessings

Dick :slight_smile: