The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Question about Mark 9:43-50

#1

Please if you can explain Mark 9:43-50 me or give me a link to explain these verses.
I am from Romania and here are not Christian universalist and I’m glad I found this forum :smiley:

#2

Welcome silviu, I hope you enjoy this forum.

If you put

in to Google, it brings up about 180 times where the verse has been mentioned :nerd:

Although hopefully someone will be able to give you a better answer/link :slight_smile:

#3

Welcome!

There’s a bit of good discussion on this passage in this thread: Bible Study on Hell

Sonia

#4

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall** destroy** the sinners thereof out of it.
Please help my to understand.I am universalist but some verses do not understand.
Do not post because I can not write well in English.

#5

I’m sorry I missed you earlier, Silviu. Do you know the Baptist Missionary leaders Bob and Gale Hill, or have you heard of them? They may be somewhat retired now, but are in charge of Southern Baptist missions to the Romani (the gypsies as we sometimes call them in English) all along the Carpathian mountains, especially in Romania. They are friends of my family, and Ms. Gale is one of my mother’s best friends. :smiley: (They are not universalists of course: the International Mission Board would not allow them to work there, much less have any authority, if they were.)

Isaiah, like most (or all) the prophets, talks a lot about God killing sinners directly or by sending armed forces (usually evildoers themselves) to do so. They often will talk about a coming earthly military destruction and weave parallels with the destruction coming when God Himself finally comes; Isaiah is doing both in this prophecy, possibly with multiple fulfillments coming for the destruction of Babylon. (God would not rape women or send righteous warriors to do so, for example, yet that is part of the prophecy at 13:16.)

In any case, although this particular prophecy doesn’t talk about what happens after God’s final destruction of sinners, that doesn’t mean nothing happens afterward. Prophets (including Isaiah) talk elsewhere about the resurrection of the evil as well as the good, and promise that God will save from sin even the sinners He had to kill (in various ways).

In short, Isaiah 13 is not the end of the story. :slight_smile:

#6

Thanks for reply.

Sorry but I have not heard of them.

#7

An explanation:

Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. He taught us to pray, “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. He taught that the kingdom of God is within.

He said, "Unless a man is born of the water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

We are called to enter the kingdom of God and become ambassadors of Christ, reconciling men to God. We are not called to “heaven up there”, but to become portals of His kingdom on earth. We are brought into the kingdom by His grace, and as we llet go of the things that prevent us from entering.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God.

Sometimes we become attached to something that we cannot “fit through the gate” of life. It is a narrow gate. When we hold onto it, the fire begins to burn, because, He is “separating the wheat from the chaff”, “gathering the wheat into bins”, and “burning the chaff with unquenchable fire”.

Every grain(person) has wheat(spirit/new man)) and chaff(flesh/carnal mind). Jesus is not separating “sinners and saints”, he is separating chaff(carnality) from seeds, and every individual has chaff(see Hebrews 4;12,13)

it is not unquenchable in that it burns forever. it is unquenchable in that it burns until it has accomplished its purpose. You cannot put it out no matter how you wail, and gnash your teeth in frustration at God- He will have His way. All will become poor in spirit- small enough to enter the kingdom through the narrow gate, through the eye of the needle.

Jesus said, I will speak to you in parables, “revealing mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world.” These mysteries of the kingdom of God are revelations about how to enter the kingdom, to be born from above, to be born of the water and the spirit.

Jesus did not bring a message about how to “escape hell” in the future, or to “get into heaven when you die”.

That is the easy answer, not the “mystery of the kingdom hidden from the foundation of the world”.

Jesus came to bring us in, to share in His “dwelling place”. To receive the kingdom of heaven within.

He proclaimed the kingdom of God. “The kingdom of God is at hand”. If we would enter, sometimes we must “pluck out an eye”, or “cut off a hand”. Painful as that may be, entering the kingdom is well worth it in terms of receiving in our spirit the righteousness, peace and joy of the Holy Spirit.

If we will not, then that unto which we cling in the flesh will prevent our entering, and the pain will gnaw at us worse than the pain of cutting it off, until we yield to God.

The parables were spoken for disciples, to reveal the way to enter and continue in the kingdom of God. Religionists apply them to sinners vs saints…eternal heaven vs eternal hell as destinations- and miss the real mystery being revealed, which is the ways of God in His kingdom now for those who have entered it and desire to stay within it, and treasure it within them.

#8

Welcome silviu to the forum. I look forward to growing together with you in the grace and knowledge of Jesus.

The word mistranslated as “Hell” is Gehenna which correctly translated is “Hinnom Valley”. Hinnom Valley is on the SSW side of Mt. Zion/Jerusalem. It was where the children of Israel under King Ahaz erected an idol, Molech, with the head of a bull, torso of a man, with a furnace for a belly. They actually sacrificed their children to that idol. And Isaiah and Jeremiah prophecied against this warning them to stop such evil, repent and turn to God less destruction comes to Jerusalem, which later happened through the Babylonians. And when the Babylonians laid seige to Jerusalem the bodies were piled high in Hinnom Valley where they were consumed by maggots (worms that don’t die), animal, and fire. And during the time of Christ, some historians think Hinnom Valley was used as a trash dump. And some think the Pharisees used Hinnom Valley as a metaphor of judgment through which evil is done away with, referencing primarily Remedial Punishment.

So Jesus could be saying:

  1. Get the sin out of your life unless you end up sacrificing your own children to the idols of your heart!
  2. Get the sin out of your life unless your life ends up good for nothing but the trash heap!
  3. Get the sin out of your life less you end up facing the fire of judgment that buns the hell out of you (kinda like Purgatory)!

It is also significant to note that Jesus is speaking in Hyperbole (overstatement) and Metaphor. Jesus does not really mean that anyone should cut off their hand or pluck out their eye; rather his is graphically saying to deal radically with sin in your life and stop doing it! And Jesus does not really mean that people will be cast in Hinnom Valley if they continue to sin; rather it is a metaphor for the evil that comes to one in this life because of sin and potentially even punishment of sin in the life to come.

And in the passage the word “fire”, I believe, is a general reference to God’s judgment of sin in this life and the life to come. God’s judgment will “burn the hell out of us”, so to say. Judgment, though painful and terrible, is for our good, and delivers us from evil. It is fire that purifies us - however or whenever that judgment comes in our life.

And 4) Jesus could also be alluding to the then coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, who also saw dead bodies being piled high in Hinnom Valley.

Sadly, by misinterpreting Gehenna as “Hell”, it nullifies this passage of its power to call anyone to repentance. Unbelievers don’t care what it says. And Believers dismiss it saying that it doesn’t apply to them because they are saved. When in reality, this passage was meant as a warning for the children of God, a warning to get the sin out of our lives unless we suffer because of our sin.

#9

John 12:25 nyone who loves their life will lose it
Please explain.

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#10

Good question

#11

Yes but i whant a good answer

#12

@Paidion @davo @JasonPratt

#13

Google the reference and check out the abundance of commentary available…

#14

I’m greatly sorry that I confused this thread with, apparently, another one from Silviu, where he or she (I don’t know the name form) asked about Isaiah 13!

On the original question from four years ago: I’ve talked a lot about it on this site, but I see that I have never gotten around to posting an ExCom entry on it! This is surely because I’ve talked about it a lot already and I wanted to focus on other things.

My far too short answer (somewhat paralleling posts above) is that Jesus specifically says that the unquenchable fire of Gehenna, “the fire the eonian” as Matthew reports Him saying in the same scene (GosMatt 18), shall salt all people, and that salting is the best of things and we should have salt in our hearts so that we can be at peace with one another. I think Jesus is talking about God the Holy Spirit (which I infer from many other contexts), but whether or not that’s true, Jesus must mean that the fire, whatever else it may be, or whatever it may mean, must be good for everyone, including for the people being punished by the fire, and that accepting the fire in our hearts leads us to stop sinning.

So the fire cannot be annihilating people out of existence; and the fire cannot be a hopelessly final punishment (much less a self-imposed fate) with no intention of saving anyone from their sins.

Beyond that there’s a lot of contextual commentary. If you are good at hearing English (or you know someone who is, who can translate easily for you), I spend several hours discussing it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcPo_-JkaRw&t=2533s

I have set that timecode to skip over 42 minutes of introduction and preliminary discussion.

For a roughly 20 minute summary of the same lecture (packed into a group of summaries of related lectures), you can try here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaM2ba8b3Y&t=3082s

#15

Meanwhile, back to the current question on GosJohn 12:25. My overly short answer is that in Greek (Paidion and others can check me on this), the verb “shall lose” is a continuing active form. The same is true for the verb for loving one’s life or soul.

So Jesus is saying that those who continue loving their soul, or their life, shall be continually losing (or continually destroying) it. But those who constantly hate or reject their life during this age (of rebellion) shall be safeguarding it, onward into eonian life.

So it isn’t necessarily about annihilation, nor some version of eternal conscious torment, (although the ongoing action of destroying your own soul fits better with some type of ECT than with anni.) As long as a person keeps fondling his own soul, he also keeps destroying or losing his own soul.

Jesus states this by contrast to how He Himself chooses to give up His own life so that many people shall grow and live together with Him. (In a Gospel chronology, this scene takes place several hours before the Final Passover.)

Jesus goes on immediately afterward to make one of His two references to dragging all people to Himself by being lifted up (apparently meaning lifted up on the cross). There are several interesting things about this statement in the immediate context, which I talk about here: JRP's Exegetical Compilation: John 12:30-50

Logically and by topic, these topics overlap with Jesus’ prior discussion of dragging all people to Himself, which has many more connections to universal salvation; and they overlap with Jesus’ prior explanation about the purpose of raising those who dishonor the Son and the Father, and who do the evil things, to a resurrection of judgment, which also has direct connections to universal salvation. (Links to my discussions on those topics can be found at the end of the prior link.)

The topic also overlaps with Jesus’ declaration, later that same night, toward the end of the Final Discourse, in GosJohn 17, that the Father has given all things into His hands so that He may be giving eonian life to all that the Father has given to Him. I talk about that here: http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4397

For a few hours of discussion on all theses connected contexts, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHpXEFpJ5MA&t=3489s (I’ve skipped over much preliminary discussion.)

For about a 20 minute summary of the connected contexts, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaM2ba8b3Y&t=535s

(Note that none of those specifically talk about verse 12:25, but they do put the subsequent verses into context, and v.25 should be understood in its immediate contexts of course!)

#16

I would think most commentators have said this text teaches hopeless punishment (whether ET or anni).

#17

Hey Jason, how is everything? Did you ever finish your essay on John 6 and 10?

#18

I mostly finished John 10, and put it aside to come back to it later to see if it still seemed correct. In fact, I spent this morning before lunch (while doing ‘work’ work) parsing through it so far again, and I’m about to post an ExCom entry on it.

I thought I had already done John 6 long ago? Some of it (not all) is included in my video lecture chapter on the purpose God’s judgment according to Jesus.

#19

Thank you for the answer.In my heart i am universalist but i whant I would like explanations for some verses.I will continue to study and I think God will help me to understand

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