Can I just ask the UR interpretation of the verse 19: “and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;”(YLT). I wanted to ask partly because I was talking to a muslim taxi driver who was telling me about the islamic perspective on the last days and I was saying about the bible saying there would be a great time of tribulation then the war (armageddon) and then the final judgement. I missed out quite a few sections including the time of peace when the devil would be bound and then the time when he would be loosed and his casting into the lake of fire. I’m concerned that I am guilty of taking away from the words of the scroll of prophecy and I have recently been having a lot of emotional, and what I believe to be spirtual, issues so I am already quite anxious but also, it does seem like there are people who will be removed from the book of life. I’m not sure that Revelation as a whole is that supportive of the UR Perspective. Sorry if any of this sounds strange but I had a good opportunity for witness and I have instead misrepresented scripture. Appreciate any points of view
Hi Sarah,
It’s really great that you could have that discussion.
I don’t think the verse means that we have to cover every detail of every thing every time we discuss something that’s in the book of Revelation, or in the Bible, depending on how you take that verse.
I think the verse is speaking of deliberately obscuring the message, changing the message to mean something wrong, adding things that aren’t there, etc. For example if you were to take your condensed version and publish it as if it were the entire original – that would be deceptive and wrong. You were just having a discussion about your understanding of end times events – not changing the book.
So far as things being taken away, etc, that’s never the end of the story because the end of the story is the reconciliation of all things. If some might have to forfeit part of their reward, or be punished for something wrong in them, that doesn’t mean they will be forever fixed in that state. In Romans, Paul speaks of the natural branches (the Jews) being cut off, and the Gentiles being grafted in, and then he says that God is able to graft back in the natural branches as well. To be cut off is to be lost for a time, but nothing is forever lost to God, because God is the good shepherd who brings back the last lost lamb.
We all get anxious from time to time, and some suffer more than others, but remember: God is love. He’s not playing games with us. He’s not going to exile us for honest mistakes. He’s trustworthy.
1Pe 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
Sonia
I heartily agree with everything Sonia said, Sarah!
Certainly it’s important to take the warning seriously, but from what you say you weren’t trying to omit those things because you thought they were false. (And indeed there has been a lot of debate in the Church over time as to what they are supposed to mean anyway.)
If people’s names were taken out of the Book of Life simply for omitting part of the whole story (especially in evangelism), practically all the Biblical authors, including Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, would have their names taken out of the BoL, too. Up to and including Jesus Himself!–His parables rarely if ever included all important details to a full gospel presentation, much less to a full ortho-doxy.
Message Translation . …
18-19I give fair warning to all who hear the words of the prophecy of this book: If you add to the words of this prophecy, God will add to your life the disasters written in this book; if you subtract from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will subtract your part from the Tree of Life and the Holy City that are written in this book.
For me, it has everything to do with perspectives. To add or to take away, we first need to grasp what the message “is” that we’re adding to or taking away from in the first place. The UR perspective . . . very tough to pin that one down because even UR has many variances in it. For me though, I don’t beleive ANY of what the traditional church teaches is going to happen. Rapture, armageddon, literal 1,000 year reign . . .I think somebody has already added lots of jots and tittles long before we came along to read what’s there now.
And to walk in life is to walk in the principles of the kingdom. To see the principles of the kingdom, we must be born again. Not born again from sin into religion. But born again-again into the truths of his nature and glory. If we add or take away from the message of redemption and resurrection, we are blind to the kingdom principles. We have no life in us, only logic and reasoning.
Thanks for your responses guys. Sonia, when you said about Revelation not being the end of the story, I have heard it said on the forum about Paul having the revelation of the end…I have to admit to being a complete newbie at this but could we be talking about when all the enemies have been put under Jesus’ feet described in 1 Corinthians 15?
Ditto to what Sonia said!
As a universalist holding to a more preterist eschatology I would only add the following: I think Rev 22:18-19 would only be somewhat problematic for believers in UR if the “new Jerusalem” is to be understood as the final state of people post-mortem (or post-resurrection). But if this “city” instead refers to the kingdom that was to come with power before some of Jesus’ disciples tasted death (Mt. 16:28; Mk. 9:1) and before their generation passed away (Lk. 21:31-32) - i.e., the kingdom of God under Christ’s mediatorial reign - then I think they are more easily reconciled with UR. Those who suffer (or suffered) the plagues referred to in v. 18, and those excluded from the city/tree of life, are not “lost forever.” While these people are “lost” for the age of the Messianic reign (and it is the commencement of this age and not “eternity” with which I believe John is concerned in Revelation), these “lost sheep” will be “found” by Christ when he returns to abolish death and subject all to himself. And after all have been subjected to Christ and the kingdom has been delivered back to God (meaning Christ is no longer reigning with God, as he is described as doing in Rev 22:3), God will be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:21-28). Moreover, the plagues described in Revelation (with which those who add to the words of the prophecy of Revelation are threatened) are evidently meant to be understood as temporal punishments being undergone by mortals (see Rev 9:18-20; 11:6; 16:1ff; 18:4, 8), not punishments taking place in another state of existence. All of the “last plagues” with which the “wrath of God” was to be “finished” are described as being poured out “on the earth” (Rev 15:1, 8; 16:1, etc.).
Yes, judgment and wrath cannot the end of the story, because the end is unity in Christ – when all things are subject to Him and God is all in all. When all has been done away which can be destroyed, the things which remain are faith, hope, and love.
Sonia
The wrath and judgment is not what God does “to” men, but what he does to “man” in “men”.