The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Question for full preterists

For the interested… what follows is a quote from Dr Kenneth Gentry, a partial prêterist (someone who rejects the FULL prêterist view) advocating for an early dating of John’s ‘Revelation’. This quote, pages 81-87, is from his 1989 edition of ‘The Beast of Revelation’. This book is a shortened abbreviated version of his more comprehensive work ‘Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation’

As can be seen an early dating is NO insignificant position held by a few thoughtless men.

And here below are but a few quotes from what might be considered the fathers of modern Universalism being indicative of others viewing Christ’s parousia as being a foregone event…

Well, there are of course the exceptions…

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Are you still motorcycling?

These days only in and out of work AND that’s when it’s not raining… sunshine biker these days :wink:

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Well certainly there are conclusions concerning historical methodology in common. But the Ehrman I’ve read certainly did not accept the central thing that Wright wrote about in the Resurrection of the Son of God and as for the so-called ‘second coming’ there was a big break also. As to truth of the New Testament there is a division between them as well.
Ehrman has his periods of faith and then lost faith. Wright has stayed a believing Christian the whole way.
I see such radical differences between them, about the most important issues, overriding what they have ‘in common’. But hey that’s just me, YMMV of course.

Agree, myself, always a fair weather rider. Also never at night. Can’t afford a wreck. To my body or my bike…

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You’ve knocked your own self out big guy!

I’ve looked at preteristarchive.com for some time now and can see how the man distorts every little bit of everything he can to support the abomination of Preterism. You certainly have a fabrication delegation working for you in all you Preterist mentors. You simply cannot add things up! Lets take a logical look at what John Chrysostom said in THE HOLY ANAPHORA which is a liturgy about the eucharist. What was he really saying? Did he say Christ had already returned?

And the faithful respond, “Amen”, while the clergy make a profound bow.
Remembering, therefore, this saving command and all that has come to pass in our behalf: the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting at the right hand, and the second coming in glory, offering you, your own, from your own, always and everywhere:

We say the very same thing today when we celebrate the Eucharist! Chrysostom isn’t saying that the second coming had occurred HE’S SAYING THAT JUST LIKE THE CROSS - THE TOMB- THE RESURRECTION - THE ASCENSION - THE SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER - WE REMEMBER THE SECOND COMING AT THE EUCHARIST! NOT that it had already taken place, but keep in remembrance that it WILL take place!

WOW! HOW PRETERIST JUST CAN’T GET ANYTHING RIGHT!

The bizarre thing is that when Preterist celebrate the Eucharist, they have no problem saying -

1Co 11:26 CSB] 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Why doesn’t it surprise me that you follow suit and can’t read about Eusebius and can’t tell the difference between the first and second advent of Christ? I wouldn’t expect any less than a misunderstanding from you - or any misled Preterist. Eusebius is talking about specific offices in the church ending. I also have a page on the same subject. Go back to school.

Eusebius lived from A.D. 260 – 340. He is known as “the father of church history,” due to his classic work Ecclesiastical History. Several times in his writings he also dates the Book of Revelation to the reign of Domitian.

Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr, Eusebius, and even Jerome, ALL state that John was banished under Domitian and that is when he wrote the Book of Revelation.

Every Christian I know believes that when Christ returns there’s a resurrection. John Chrysostom believed in a FUTURE resurrection. He said -

“For what position can be loftier or more secure than that in which a man has only one anxiety, ‘How he ought to please God?’ Hast thou seen the shipwrecks, Theodore, of those who sail upon this sea? Wherefore, I beseech thee, avoid the deep water, avoid the stormy billows, and seize some lofty spot where it is not possible to be captured. There is a resurrection, there is a judgment, there is a terrible tribunal WHICH AWAITS us when we have gone out of this world; ‘we must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ’” (St. Chrysostom, An Exhortation To Theodore After His Fall, Letter II, 4).

If you mourn immoderately over him who has departed you will be like that unbeliever who has no hope of a resurrection**. He indeed does well to mourn, inasmuch as he cannot exercise any spiritual wisdom concerning things to come: but thou who hast received such strong proofs CONCERNING THE FUTURE LIFE, why dost thou sink into the same weakness with him? Therefore it is written ‘now concerning them that are asleep we would not have you ignorant that ye sorrow not even as others who have no hope’" (Chrysostom: Omily On The Paralytic Let Down Through The Roof).

The bible warns us there will be scoffers in the last days saying, where is the promise of his coming” (II Peter 3:3-4)

Preterism is a demonic attack on God’s Prophetic word. There is no greater abomination.

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I see you have a penchant for accusing that which you disagree with as being a fabrication… can’t wait to see how you rewrite the likes of those classic Universalist scholars such as Hanson, Thayer, Ballou, Paige and Guild etc, etc :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

This too makes interesting reading from Eusebius Pamphili of Caesarea (AD. 264-339). When Eusebius speaks of the historian he refers to the non-Christian chronicler Flavius Josephus.

This too is interesting…

…worth some dispassionate consideration I would think.

Well, it’s NOT often I get on a soapbox. But today I will.

For Al-K-Hall, what would be the MOST appalling idea?

  • That Preterism is true?

  • Or some type of future tribulation is true. But the most likely candidate is Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)?

Well, I’ll let him ponder that. Let’s get back to this gentleman, that Holly tree brought up.

Let me quote something here:

Gentry is perhaps best known for his book Before Jerusalem Fell , which argues that the Book of Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. He holds that many of the dramatic events in Revelation correspond to the persecution of Christians under the Roman imperium as well as to the Jewish War against Rome which resulted in the destruction of Jewish temple. This book is the published version of his doctoral dissertation in 1986 under the title “The Dating of the Book of Revelation: An Exegetical, Theological and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition.”

Well, his book is based upon this PhD dissertation. And dissertation committees are made up of distinguished professors - often with opposing academic views. So if the dissertation committee approved this, it means they felt - his research is strong. And he could argue for Preterism, based upon a “revised” Book of Revelation dating.

Now let me pose a question.

  • What does it mean, when we say that we’re created in the image and likeness of God?

And

  • Greater works than these shall you do?

To which I add this, to this second question:

  • Is that statement, just limited to Christians?

Last night, I visited an art gallery - run by the local Methodist church. But once a month, the Japanese light group Sukyo Mahikari visited - to give light.

Well, they had an 81- year-old black lady visit And she was a study of Joel Goldsmith, for decades. We got to talking. You see, Joel Goldsmith was a metaphysical healer. And he was originally part of Mary Baker Eddy’s organization - Christian Science. So I’m very familiar with Mary Baker Eddy and Joel Goldsmith. And I feel their healing methods are sound. Even though I view them as contemplation, rather than theology. And they are compatible, with modern medicine and ancient healing modalities.

So anyway, this lady talks about sitting in silence. And internalizing some passages of Christian scripture. Well, it’s similar to this ancient Eastern Orthodox practice.

And this approach by Emmet Fox

Both valid healing approaches, in my book.

Then I came across a book entitled Urban Mystic by Ray Grasse. And it’s about Goswami Kriyananda, a deceased Eastern teacher from Chicago. And I studied with him - for years. Let me quote a passage, that intrigued me.

To be able to enter into the dream of God means you then stand to gain the divine siddhis, the divine energies and powers associated with living in that dream - and therefore you can heal people. You can help people.

Or to put it more mystically, by entering into that cosmic dream you can help God with his responsibility.

Well, this is covered more fully in the book This House Is On Fire: The Life of Shri Dhyanyogi by Shri Anandi Ma. Well, I studied under both the author and the person the biography was about. And there’s even a group picture in the book, with me in it.

And spiritual healing, is explored with this guy:


And when i was part of the extended family, of the Two Feathers Medicine Clan. I studied under the guidance of medicine men Duke Big Feather and Joseph Many Horses. And you can get deep, by reading books like Beyond the Lodge of the Sun: Inner Mysteries of the Native American Way (The “Earth Quest” Series) vy Chokecherry Gall Eagle or Fools Crow Wisdom and Power by Lutheran minister Thomas Mails.

So what does it really mean, to be made in the image and likeness of God? Or to do greater works than Christ? And is that just limited to Christians? And if the devil was “responsible”…how does he “benefit”, if you give all the credit - back to God?

Would we potentially, become like these Tibetans?

And for For Al-K-Hall, what would be the MOST appalling idea?

  • That Preterism is true?

  • Or some type of future tribulation is true. But the most likely candidate is Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)?

All this reflection, brings a song to mind. :crazy_face:

Gentry’s view is my view Randy. The new heavens and earth began in 70 AD but hasn’t fully developed or worked itself out. We haven’t reached the full consummations yet. I believe things have been slowly improving since the NT times and 70 AD destruction. There are setbacks but It will overall continually get better and better until the full consumation of the new heaven and earth where there will be no more death or suffering.

Yep that’s the partial prêterist postmillennial view.

Al-K-Hall to Davo!

We need a short video, to illustrate this sentiment. :crazy_face:

Dave to Chad.

How about THIS future, Dave? :crazy_face:

Perhaps I should include, a video discussing Preterism? This does back the partial preterist view. :crazy_face:

I thought I explained this before. FYI -

I’m not a dispensationalist and I don’t believe in the futurist view of Daniel’s 70TH week. They’re obsessed with Daniel’s 70th week. So I disagree with some futurist on the timeframe of ages.

From creation to the time of Noah is the first age. Most call it the first dispensation but I don’t like calling any of the ages a ‘dispensation’.

The second age or ‘dispensation’ is from the flood - the time Noah - to the time of Christ. Call it what you like, the Old Covenant age or the age of Judaic and Mosaic law. That Old Covenant was fulfilled at Christ first advent especially when he was Crucified and the curtain was torn. That signified the end of the age.

FROM THAT TIME (30-33 AD) -
We are living in the church age - the age from the time of Christ to the resurrection or return of Christ at the PAROUSIA - it’s the period of time the Church is on earth. After that -

Is the Millennial age or the 1,000 years mentioned 6 times in Revelation 20. We could also say that age begins at the Parousia and goes through eternity.

What age is Paul talking about in 1 Cor. 10:11? Look at the context. As I said in a previous post -

Twice Paul says that this is all an example for them - that they need to learn from Moses’ mistakes. The age he’s talking about is the one that began with Noah - the time of Moses which ended at the time of Christ.

“Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

I’m all for debating such interpretations. But that those who have faced harsh rejection and bucked the orthodox paradigm of heresy hunters by embracing universalism, or often even questioning the classic Trinitarian view of God, should then call brethren who embrace some minority view of eschatology blasphemous heretics just sounds absolutely bizarre to me.

And it doesn’t suggest much chance of overcoming the tendency we all have to focus on ad hominem attacks rather that trying to understand the substance of how we arrive at differing interpretations.

Most Christians who accept Trinitarianism have no clue of the pagan origins of the Trinity. It’s a doctrine that was devised by the Catholic’s under dyer circumstances. Trinitarians often condemn non-Trinitarians. I don’t condemn anyone, but I do believe Preterism was inspired by the evil ones.

I believe Jesus when he said the Father is greater.

I believe him when he said he doesn’t know the day or hour of his return.

I believe him when he says he can do nothing on his own.

I also believe him when he said blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not. If they were the same person blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other.

IF the holy spirit is the same yet separate person “why doesn’t the holy spirit have a name, and why isn’t he found in or around the Throne of God?” I can tell you why. The Holy Spirit IS the Seven Spirits of God.

We know that God cannot be tempted and He cannot sin. IF Jesus were God that makes the cross a hoax and Jesus a fraud because Jesus - being God - could not have sinned anyway!

As a nonTrinitarian or preterist, I appreciate your confirmation of what I find totally bizarre. Frankly when anyone’s case for their beliefs emphasizes accusing those arguing a different hermeneutic of being blasphemous heretics, I lack trust the discussion will be able to calmly engage the substance at issue.

The torn veil/curtain behind the altar of Holy of Holies signified the end of the law. Mankind’s separation from God had been removed by Jesus’ sacrifice at Calvary.

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Thank you for the admonition.

J. Barton Payne’s Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy lists 1,239 prophecies in the Old Testament and 578 prophecies in the New Testament, for a total of 1,817. I’m not sure how many are END-TIME prophecies. The 578 in the NT are mostly end-time.

I believe people accept Preterism because it’s so easy to say “it already happened,” and they don’t want to speculate or take a chance being wrong on an interpretation.

I like Al’s analysis of eschatology as to me it makes the most sense but everything has presumptions. Al is taking mostly OT verses and applying it to modern day Islamic countries because of very logical reasons which i agree with , but it’s not a slam dunk.
Every view does this including Preterism which makes assumptions of resurrections and the return of Jesus and judgments & other things with no physical evidence. Many things in the NT reference 70AD but not everything and i don’t see Revelation in a highly symbolic way repeating events supposedly in 70AD when those events were already described clearly in the gospels such as the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. If Revelation was about 70AD, it would be the ultimate example of overkill.
Lastly Jerusalem was slowly strangled to death in 70AD , not the sudden destruction described in the actual end times.