Lol… you just can’t beat the logic Hermano — you’re one’s scoffing!
Well of course you would… when you need to stretch an argument you’re always happy to stretch and add to scripture, BUT Peter never said as you do. The REASON why some folks then were scoffing was because they knew Jesus and his apostles were speaking TO THEM… it’s called audience relevance — when Jesus spoke to his people he wasn’t speaking blithely over their heads.
You’ve lost me there, Davo. In 2 Peter 3:3-10, after the ascension of Christ, Peter is the one prophesying, about yet to come conditions prior to the Second Coming.
Yes it seems to be my gift… OR, the default response you guys give when your opposition doesn’t stand up to logic.
It seems to me that the fall of Jerusalem would be very significant because it was the seat of power which governed Jews everywhere. This can be likened to the Pope and Vatican City, or perhaps people of other nations who are still subjects to the rulers of their country even though they live abroad.
Israel’s history IS the Christian story. Israel was born in Christ as it says:
It eventually became a religious state under the Levitical law.
It would be as if America, born on Christian principles and values, became a religious state an started persecuting all who didn’t believe likewise.
Yes… and it seems the main reason folk here close their eyes to this reality is because they perceive to acknowledge such would weaken their eschatological position, i.e., something more important than biblical truth.
Consider the church at Thessalonica… nowhere near Jerusalem let alone Judea and yet we have this…
2Thess 2:3-4 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
I’m pretty sure Paul’s WAS NOT referring to the temple of Aphrodite in Thessalonica — NO… I suggest Paul had the temple of Jerusalem firmly in mind WITH HIS THESSALONIAN READERS likewise understanding the same!
If Paul’s readers wanted to sin…I’m sure the Temple of Aphrodite…embraced the religion of “Temple Prostitution” or “Sacred Prostitution”. I believe this Wiki article…If I read it correctly - bears this out! 
Davo, you lost me too. Here’s my attempt to get some clarification:
Is the above quote the “logic” that Hermano is accused of ignoring? My reading of the thread led me to believe that you ignored the text of 2 Pet 3:3-10. A plain reading of that text seems to indicate that “the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly” will be a much more extravagant event than what occurred in 70 A.D.
verse 7: “the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire”?
Then in another post:
Are you abbreviating a well-known preterist argument here? (I know little of the preterist view, admittedly because I have found the [small amount of] evidence that I have read in its favor very unconvincing).
Preterist:
a) “Paul said that verse 4 will occur before Christ returns.”
b) “Verse 4 was fulfilled long ago, thus Christ must have come shortly after verse 4 was fulfilled.”
Well, with all due respect, it is your 'plain reading ’ and that is well and good, but if you go back and search the subject, in the search section, you’ll find a bunch of stuff. Good luck.
Drew said,
A plain reading of that text seems to indicate that “the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly” will be a much more extravagant event than what occurred in 70 A.D.
MM said -
The text of 2 Peter 3:3-4 is plain and simple. There’s no “bunch of stuff” that’s extravagant in an AD 70 context which fulfilled 2 Peter 3:3-10 like Preterist believe.
The only reason Preterist believe in their heretical abomination is because of their inability to understand the book of Revelation, Mathew 24, or any prophecy in an end-time context. It’s so much easier to believe “it already happened.”
I hate Preterism and believe the Lord does too, it is an abomination to the Lord. Preterism denies and perverts the entire book of Revelation, entire chapters of the bible, and over a thousand verses.
2Pe 3:3-4
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
It’s very doubtful these scoffers are Christians.
COMING - PAROUSIA - the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.
Ah, this must be your so-called “open mindedness” you’ve waxed eloquent about elsewhere… NOT!
What a stupid thing to say… no doubt you fear the biblical, historical and logical threat fulfilled prophecy brings to your failing futurism… time is running out.
To Drew…
Unfortunately I completely missed your last post to me as I’d been out of the country some days and was in fact doing a motorbike tour up the Ho Chi Minh Trail Vietnam… I’ll get to your queries accordingly.
Ah, this must be your so-called “open mindedness” you’ve waxed eloquent about elsewhere… NOT!
I knew this would strike a nerve!
I was referring to the different aspects of the futurist view when I said I’m willing to change my mind. Whether someone is a Futurist or Preterist very few change their mind because it’s an admission of being wrong and the words “I was wrong” typically doesn’t exist in the vocabulary of most Christians.
There’s nothing more close minded than Preterism.
What a stupid thing to say… no doubt you fear the biblical, historical and logical threat fulfilled prophecy brings to your failing futurism… time is running out.
I fear nothing about logic, truth, prophecy, or putting any Preterist up to a debate. There’s nothing more stupid than the abomination of the Preterist view. What didn’t happen in AD 70 debunks Preterism, but changing the mind of a misled Preterist is like taking a sliver out of the back side of a wild cat.
Al-K-Hall, Calling someone’s argument “stupid… closeminded… and an abomination belonging in the abyss” appears grossly ad hominem. I’m no full preterist and not convinced by Davo, but he has sought to cogently present his exegesis, and relying on name calling will leave many with the impression that you are insecure about focusing on the substance of his arguments.
I think you need to read the replies again. He called my reply stupid. I called Preterism a close minded abomination. There was no name calling and no personal attacks.
And you call that an argument and an exegesis? Wow!
Let me say it another way. Preterism is a shameful - even sinful denial of God’s prophetic Word and it belongs in the Abyss. There is no greater abomination. I’ll stand firmly against it.
I always consult Got Questions, on a number of topics here.
However, what about partial preterism? Just to be clear, I’m not a proponent of the Preterist view - full or partial. But I think you could label Anglican bishop and New Testament scholar - NT Wright - a partial preterist.
Again, many within the Churches of Christ subscribe to partial preterism.
According to partial preterism the only event in the future that remains is the Second Coming of Jesus which ushers in Final Judgment.
I don’t know if Wright would describe his views as preterist. Wright is definitely not a full preterist. But much of Wright’s writing articulates a partial preterist viewpoint, especially when it comes to Jesus.
However, a person could be a partial or full preterist…just as they could be a dogmatic universalist…and subscribe to all the historical, Biblical creeds.
gotquestions comes up quite often when I google something. They are better than they use to be. I’ve changed their mind on an issue once about the Great White Throne.
There’s not much difference between full and partial Preterism. The only difference is the return of Christ. They both deny just about everything.
They both have changed the dating of Revelation’s writing to AD70 otherwise Preterism is debunked from the get go.
Well, O.K. Now I realize you do actually focus dispassionately on exegetical substance 
The logic is sound… fulfilled eschatology acknowledges Jesus has come as promised… it is futurists who continue to scoff… “no he hasn’t!”
‘The heavens and earth’ are to be understood as a metaphor of Israel and in particular the Temple. Consider the non-Christian Jewish historian Josephus…
Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews
Book 3.6:4 However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.
Book 3.7:7 When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men.
It was this creation, i.e., Israel of the old covenant that was close to being dissolved and passing away, or as the writer of Hebrews says…
Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Cf. 1Jn 1:8
That old covenant world of which Jerusalem—Temple—Priesthood—Sacrifice etc was the epitome and epicentre was on the brink of collapse and ready to be consumed by fire aka AD70. Further evidence of this is the apocalyptic language Peter uses to describe this when he says twice… “and the elements will melt with fervent heat” (2Pet 3:10, 12) — the word elements is στοιχεῖα stoichia meaning… basic rudiments of the law, aka the old covenant; which is exactly how Paul likewise uses the same…
Gal 4:3, 9 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. … But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
Thus Peter’s… “the heavenly elements melting with fervent heat” equates with Paul’s… “rudimentary elements of the world” — the Apostles are on the self-same page looking forward to the fullness of the NEW CREATION coming on their near horizon (John’s ‘last hour’) in Christ’s AD70 Parousia — 2Pet 3:13; 2Cor 5:17; Rev 21:1. This is cosmic language describing covenant realities!
Well no, in fact I wasn’t… “abbreviating a well-known preterist argument” — the point I was making was to affirm LLC’s point previously made. I did this affirming the centrality of Jerusalem and in particular the Temple in the Jewish mindset prevalent among the early believers far beyond their beloved land… again, the early church was predominately Jewish and thus its early successful growth.
It’s astouding that Preterist take passages concerning the end of days - the consummation of the age - The Day of the Lord, and pervert them by coverting their true meaning into an AD 70 fulfillment. It’s a terrible thing to take such a simple to understand and pristine passages just to make things fit in a Preterist context.
Peter understood the importance of the old and new covenant message. The New Testament was just being formed and the Old Testament covenant was at that time thousands of years old. Amazingly, according to Preterist, the new covenant was fulfilled in AD 70 and lasted less than 40 years. Pure Preterist nonsense.
“And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:”
VINES -
Fathers - (b) of a more remote ancestor, the progenitor of the people, a “forefather,” e.g., Mat 3:9; 23:30; 1Cr 10:1; the patriarchs, 2Pe 3:4;
Zero logic, zero hermeneutics, pure fabrication, and full blasphemy - equals Preterism… thus, like no other, the greatest abomination ever to enter the church.
"Where is the promise of his coming?" for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Christians should not be surprised that there are those who scoff at the idea of Jesus coming again. Full Preterist scoff at Christ return because they believe in the foolishness that he already returned in AD70! Not only ARE Preterist ‘presently’ scoffers, but IN THE LAST DAYS approaching the consummation of the AGE - so will unbelievers scoff, and will likely scoff to PRE-TRIB believers, many of whom are obsessed with pre-trib!
Will come in the last days:
The days approaching the consummation of the age. We could say the last days began when Jesus ascended into heaven which culminates at the consummation of the New Covenant age. Peter affirms this in verse by saying in verse 8 & 9 -
V. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
V. 9a The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
Twice in the passage Peter uses the word ignorant which is perfectly fitting when applied to Preterism! Comparing a day to a thousand years and the Lord not being slack in a human timeframe implies ‘delay’ - NOT a fulfillment in less than 40 years!
“For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
This passage describes the ignorance of Preterism because in AD 70 there was never a widespread judgment of God by fire like there was in the days of Noah by water. Other than one family in the region, the world of Noah’s time perished and it didn’t perish by fire in AD 70. It’s only Preterist who are ignorant of this by distorting its true meaning, putting them TODAY among the scoffers.
The heavens and the earth continue to be kept in store FOR FIRE AGAINST THE DAY OF JUDGMENT - ungodly men still abound as they did in Peter’s day and their day of judgment has NOT YET come.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Verses 10-13 throws Preterism in the Abyss where it belongs. The Day of the Lord didn’t come in AD 70, the heavens (atmosphere/clouds) didn’t pass away with a great noise, and the elements (meaning which was thoroughly perverted by Davo) did not melt with fervent heat, and the earth and works therein were NOT burned up, the heavens were NOT on fire, and ALL ‘those’ things were NOT dissolved, and the PAROUSIA did NOT take place.
The Preterist Perversion of 2 Peter 3 is pure 100% blasphemy and an abomination because they change God’s true Word of Prophecy to fit in 70AD.