The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Question for full preterists

Theology Eschatology
#42

I think you forgot what God tells Daniel in verse 1 which sets the context for chapter 12.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I’m not going to post an entire commentary on verse 1a because it really is self explanatory. Knowing the Preterist fabrication about it, I’ll debunk it if and when it arises.

What is it about the first century that seems so significant that ALL prophecy is fulfilled? Like so many others you put your entire belief system on ONE word, just like the word “shortly” of Revelation 1:1 which is a poor translation of the word tachos - which is coupled with the preposition (en) or ‘with’ - better translated “with suddenness.” (with swiftness)

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

How could Daniel seal up a book until the time of the end? The words ‘shut up’ - catham - and the word SEAL - or chatham are similar. Shut up means to 'stop, keep close and hide. ‘Seal’ means to restrain, hinder, or instruct. Daniel is told that the book is to be keept safely -preserving it until the time of the end when it would be authenticated and fully understood - at the time of the end. AD 70 was NOT the time of the end in an apocalyptic context.

Job uses the word ‘seal’ quite a lot. When he said in 33:16, “he seals up their instruction,” Gesenius says he means to, “instruct them privately and to reveal to someone.”
Gesenius

Another part of verse 4 that you’ve overlooked - which outright debunks Preterism is -

many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
I don’t know how preterist work their way around that in an AD 70 context but we’ll find out! Daniel is describing a distinctive feature of the time of the end. To run to and fro likely indicates a time when several modes of travel is widespread - and knowledge SHALL BE INCREASED implies an outbreak of vast information - a time of so many forms of media - just like we are participating in right now.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

When I look at Daniel chapter 7, 11 and the remainder of Chapter 12, we are obviously dealing with the tribulation period of the last days. NOT what occurred in AD70.

A time where the saints are given into Antichrist’s hands, the duration of “the time of trouble” for Israel. (a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.) The period that the holy city will be tread underfoot by Gentiles, also mentioned in Revelation 11. ETC.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

In this context Preterism makes no sense. The nearness of time is not meant because Revelation was written between 90-95 AD. Preterist changed the dating of the book to fit their heresy to about AD65. Even if that were true, what nonsense to think that an entire book of 22 chapters full of symbolism would somehow be preached, copied, circulated, or even remotely understood throughout the world at a time of severe persecution within just a few years? That makes the entire book of Revelation about useless!

What Jesus is telling John is to not keep the book secret and security so as to postpone its understanding of its disclosure.

"The time is at hand" -

The word time is in the interlinear better translated as an ERA, and according to chapter 22 culminates when the last judgment takes place.

#43

What an abominable mess of misinformation! You’re doing nothing new that futurists don’t already do… “that word would better mean this________” — fill the blank with whatever concoction meets your need… pfff!

In the words of Arnie, Jesus told his own specific generation… “I’ll be back!” — Jesus kept his promise and I’m NOT the one scoffing at it — that’s all you! The disciples asked a very straightforward and easy for Jesus to understand question, to which Jesus gave an astoundingly CLEAR easy for his disciples to understand answer… “what will be the sign of your coming AND the end of the age?” (Mt 24:3) — Jesus prophesies DIRECTLY to the Roman rout of AD70! Cf. Lk 21:20-22

Jesus had ALREADY foretold that some of them would not die before witnessing the glorious coming power of the event…

Mt 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

These texts ONLY get explained away and dismissed by failing futurism BECAUSE they completely undermine that waning eisegesis.

#44

Let’s emphasize these words, so the forum audience - impresses them into their minds. :crazy_face:

#46

Only preterist believe the age ended in AD70. The “end of the age” means CONSUMMATION of the age. It’s amusing to see how Preterist try to explain how the entire book of Revelation, Mathew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and prophecies given by all the OT prophets were fulfilled. It’s especially amusing to see how Preterist respond to the many things Jesus mentions in Mathew 24, I mean it truly is hilarious! Tell us the many ways Mathew 24 was fulfilled in AD 70, I could use a good laugh!

One misled Preterist once told me that the earthquakes in various places indicated the "ground shaking events surrounding AD 70! Now that one took the cake!

#47

Why don’t you?

#49

The New Testament says they were living in the last days.

The last days of what?

Acts 2
14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
The “this” was the events recorded in the book of Acts.

No hermeneutic - no truth.
Acts was written about AD85. Oh I know how imperative it was for Preterist to change the dates, but hey, there’s no other way to fabricate the heresy of Preterism.

What does the phrase "the last days infer?"
First - the word LAST -

"last, utmost, extreme,"
eschatos - extreme - last in time or in place - last in a series of places- last in a temporal succession.

There were several words for LAST that the author of Acts (likely Luke) could have used. but he chose eschatos. Of all the words for LAST, it’s the one of most extreme of being LAST. In fact it’s the same one used in Revelation 1:11…

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

And the same word used in Revelation 22:13.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Thayer’s -of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom.
You would rather believe Gentry, Sproul, Hanegraaff, and the rest of the bunch.

It’s typical of Preterist to disregard context. Take a look at Joel 2:28-32 from which Luke is quoting. Starting at verse 30…

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

I’ve never known a Preterist who hadn’t made a fool of themselves trying to explain that passage in a 70 AD context! The were NO celestial events in AD 70 to the magnitude Joel describes and there was nothing about AD 70 that establishes an AD70 “last days” fulfillment.

In Mathew 24:3b the disciples asked -
Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mathew 24 has 3 different words for WORLD and three different words for END. Preterist disregard that little tidbit of a hermeneutic because in essence it debunks Preterism!

The word WORLD in verse 3 tells us the significance of the question -

ōn - for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe period of time, age

It is outright foolishness that Preterist claim the AGE - and consummation thereof lasted for less than 40 years ending in AD70!

Another text:
Hebrews 1
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Jesus as heir of all things didn’t end in AD 70, neither did the age, and neither did the last days end, it was their beginning. The same word for the uttermost word for LAST is used, and the phrase “last days” refers to the age of Messiah which we still live within. It’s a long period - and last period of the age.

#50

Yes it is. It is an astounding revelation, but folks like you will not only not understand, instead of being a rational debater, you act like… Something most Christians would not want their families around… No offense mind you, Forum stuff!:crazy_face:

#52

Yeah how amazing is that… fancy listening to Jesus or his disciples!

Lk 21:20-22 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by (Roman) armies, then know that its desolation is near (AD70). Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Acts 3:20-21, 24 …and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. … Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

And who’d have thought for a self-confessed prêterist expert you didn’t know this… go figure :thinking:

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#56

A simple goole search shows this and I can guarantee these guys are not prêterists…

https://carm.org/when-was-acts-written

#58

No offense but I come across the way I do because I believe with all my heart that any doctrine that perverts thousands of verses of God’s Prophetic Word, dozens of chapters, and entire books is demonic - inspired by none other than Satan himself and his demons. I know it, God knows it, and I prophesy it.

#59

You need to quote the verse for me to respond.

#60

Explain why what? I’m not sure I know what you’re getting at.

#63

Explain why “It is outright foolishness that Preterist claim the AGE - and consummation thereof lasted for less than 40 years ending in AD70!” I’m pretty sure most preterists do not think an age lasted less than 40 years. The age that ended in 70 goes back to when the Torah was written.

That’s another fabrication of Preterism. NO AGE ended in AD 70, it ended in AD30-33. You guys make AD 70 look like an end of the world apocalypse, but refuse to see that Christ death and resurrection ended the age under the law, and began a new age of grace. The old covenant under the law was done and the New covenant began.

Preterist fabrications are endless. I’m very surprised that so many people have fallen for these lies.

#64

“Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

How can this be referring to the end of an age in AD70 when the book of 1 Corinthians was written around AD55?

Twice Paul says that this is all an example for them and they need to learn from Moses’ mistakes etc. He’s talking about Moses and the OT Fathers, encouraging Jewish believers not to forget their experiences but retain them as examples, even though Israel was a bad example.

The KJV omitted one very important word in the translation. The KJV -

**“upon whom the ends of the world are come.”**is incorrect.

Paul actually said, “To us, on whom the end of the world is come,” notice who he’s referring to - TO US! He’s referring to the concluding period of God’s government over Israel - the winding up of all former “ages.” That’s the AGE I’m telling you that ended in 30-33AD!

The KJV has hundreds of mistakes. Take a look at 1 Cor. 10:11 in the Textus Receptus, the document the KJV was translated from, and notice the on-us/to-us.

Textus Receptus

FYI - The world WORLD is again the word AEON/AGE.

#65

What you’re not appreciating is that there was a 40yr New covenant generation… the firstfruit saints, a biblical generation within Jesus’ “this generation” that emulates Moses’ generation. It took 40yrs to go from bondage to liberty EVEN THOUGH they were all initially redeemed in toto out of Egypt. It was the faithful of Jesus’ day who coming through the great tribulation that imbibed of the blessings of the fulfilment of the New Covenant in the Parousia of AD70 — these are direct biblical parallels that your futurism totally misses and messes.

Christ’s Cross (AD30) and Christ’s Coming (AD70) together act as bookends to God’s final redemptive act on behalf of all Israel… it is finished. Christ’s Cross was the DECISIVE event and Christ’s Coming was the CULMINATING event — 40yrs.

In the AD30 Cross the Law lost all redemptive value BUT it was still ever-present in their Jewish world. It took the AD70 Coming to finally remove all vestiges of the law that was still present… and it did this demonstrably in the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple.

That the law was STILL present and STILL carrying effect in the early church is provable from the NT… just read Acts. Not only that, but consider the ever-present problem Paul constantly confronted, i.e., believers returning to or turning aside after law-righteousness. IF the law was gone, as you say, such would not have been an issue. To be sure… the law no longer carried ANY redemptive affect with God, BUT while the Temple stood the law held undue sway over those Jesus redeemed, i.e., Israel.

Now you can ignore the following evidence that puts the sword right through your claim, but here is but a portion of the NT evidence from Acts not only showing the prevalence of the Law’s presence and sway, BUT even Paul himself submitting to it…

Acts 15:1, 5, 24 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” — But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” — Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—

Acts 16:3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.

Acts 18:18 So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow.

Acts 21:20, 23-24, 26 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; — Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. — Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.

Acts 24:17-18 “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult.

And yet MORE evidence of the Law’s presence post-cross…

Heb 7:8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives.

Heb 9:8-9 …the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—

Heb 13:10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.

You’ll notice from chapter 9 above that… “while the first tabernacle was still standing” there remained yet a manifestation to come… THAT manifestation came in the AD70 Parousia of Christ demonstrating for every eye to see the final blow to the Mosaic age, i.e., the end of the age in the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple — as per Jesus’ prophetic words!

Now I understand you won’t be moved one iota by any of this biblical evidence, and that’s fine… I’ve really posted this for the possible interest other genuine enquirers of biblical reality.

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#66

So Al-K-Hall. If you don’t agree with any variety of Preterism, then from this article:

What position do you advocate, from this Wiki article?

  • Premillennialism

  • Pretribulation rapture

  • Midtribulation rapture

  • Posttribulation rapture

  • Postmillennialism

  • Amillennialism

Since I do advoicate that Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9);…is the most probable, end-times tribulation scenerio…I’m a futurists, of some type. But I don’t advocate the rapture. Since the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic and many Protestant denominations - don’t agree with it.

Which of the outlined positions - if any - do you embrace?

And what is your stance on Universalism? Are you either a dogmatic or hopeful universalist? And if neither, what is your position on hell (ECT, annihilation, etc.), those of other faiths and the final destiny of mankind? I’m a Hopeful (1, 2, 3, 4) Universalist (as my first choice),. a hopeful annihilationist secondary and a dogmatic Christian Inclusiveist (1, 2, 3, 4) - but not a believer in ECT.

#69

To Al K Hall:

“Something” - not even human? Not made in the image of God? And why would most Christians not want their families around Al-K-Hall?
This is the sort of response I would expect from someone who has no reasonable argument but who is terrified that their world-view is being undermined.

As for the preterists desire to keep NT dates prior to AD70, one thing they cannot contest is that the Church Fathers (definitely post AD70) were still expecting the second coming of Christ as a future event.
Not one of them acknowledged that the parousia had already taken place - because it clearly hadn’t!

#70

That’s my position exact, Pilgrim. And the fact that the Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic and Roman Catholic churches, agree with the church fathers perspective. Having said that, I don’t necessary agree with Al K Hall, that those embracing partial preterism (like the Christ of Christ denomination or N. T. Wright advocates) or even full Preterism - are necessarily show stoppers. I would look at how they view (and or subscribe), to the historical creeds.

image

Same with dogmatic universists. While I Hope (1, 2, 3, 4) they are right.

I’m definitely a Christian Inclusivist (1, 2, 3, 4), like this conservative Calvinist theologian:

And if Universalism does occur…it’s most likely like this guy envisions it.

However, if I can become “corrupted” by folks like RC priest Richard Rohr from CAC and the Theosophical Society…so that I actively (and sometimes hypothetically) participate… in the ceremonies, contemplative practices, and healings - of the wisdom traditions…and entertain Biblical zombies from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)…I can cut others some slack. :crazy_face:

But other things, like same-sex marriages…or President Trump as a Superstar (not a bad guy, but not a Superstar) - gets my blood boiling. :crazy_face:

#71

Hi Pilgrim,

As a former pastor, if someone were to push Preterism in my church they would first get a warning. If they continued after that they would get a second warning and I would tell the congregation to avoid them. No third warning - they get the boot - excommunicated. That’s what Paul did and it’s biblical. False teachers do get a second chance.

Thanks for standing up for me. I do hate Preterism and know it’s evil, but I don’t question anybody’s salvation or commitment to the Lord.

1 Like
#72

Christians living during 70 A.D., as well as the church fathers, believed the Second Coming was a future event. They never referred to the Second Coming as a past event, over and over they referred to it as future event.

The Didache, a first century document every Christian should read, was lost for centuries and rediscovered in Constantinople in 1873. This document proves that those who lived through the events of A.D. 70 regarded the events of Matthew 24-25 as unfulfilled.

This Didache mentions the Antichrist, (and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God,) the great tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ as unfulfilled events. The Didache is a good piece of evidence from the very believers who lived through the events surrounding A.D. 70 that the Preterism is false.

Preterist would rather believe 21th century people like Gentry, Sproul, Hannagraf, DeMar, Darell Myatt, and discredit 1st and second century historians like…

Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr, Eusebius, and even Jerome, the one who translated the Scriptures into Latin (The Vulgate). He lived from 340 to 419. He states clearly in two places, that John was banished under Domitian and that is when he wrote the Book of Revelation.

Polycarp was a student of John the Revelator and Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp. Did all you Preterist get that? If anyone would know - IRENAEUS would! Irenaeus says John had his “apocalyptic vision (the things he writes about in the Book of Revelation) towards the end of Domitian’s reign.” Now I expect someone to discredit Irenaeus for allegedly saying Jesus lived to be about 50 years old. I’d gladly debunk it.

None of the Church fathers, Justin Martyr, Eusebius, Tertullian, Polycarp, etc. ever mentioned Christ’s Second Coming as having already occurred. There is zero indication from the church fathers that anyone understood the New Testament prophecies from a preterist perspective.

Whether one is a partial or full Preterist, what DIDN"T happen in 70 AD debunks Preterism. I have yet to find ONE Preterist who logically explains a 70AD fulfillment of Revelation or Mathew 24.

One would think that IF all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD, there would be clear evidence of it and God would have given us some indication or at least ONE written record - scripture of it’s fulfillment. There’s NOTHING about the events surrounding 70AD that fulfill the consummation of the age. NOTHING that makes the tribulation of that time period, “such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

Bottom line Preterism is - BOGUS!