The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Question for full preterists

Do you understand the fig tree illustration? Jesus never said he would return in the generation of those living at the time. He said that his return comes to the generation that SEES the events PASS he mentioned between verses 3-33…that generation WOULD NOT PASS until all the things he mentioned - DO PASS!

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

That’s the lesson of the fig tree illustration!

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things know that it is near, even at the doors. (His return)

The word THIS is the same thing as saying “THE SAME”

i.e. - THE SAME generation that sees the events pass - THE SAME ONE that SEES all these thing fulfilled - is the ONE that SEES Christ return!!

NO fabrication needed!

I have found that, actually! But TW certainly is looking for a future ‘coming’ of Christ that is not related to the business around 70 AD or 135 AD.

You’re right as to Wright on his future expectation… but your comment as applied to Michael’s comment — well Michael’s assessment as to Ehrman’s position sure sounds awfully similar to TW’s work.

So I guess that everything is “alright” with “Wright”? I think I made a joke. :smiley:

Now back to my dilemma.

If I look at the list towards the end…which of these groups I selected, follow the Bible “correctly”?

  • Oneness Pentecostal
  • Church of Christ, Scientist
  • Unitarian Christians

And what are the “criteria”, for considering who is “Orthodox”?

Maybe this new forum guy can straighten me out. :crazy_face:

I am sorry if you felt I inferred such, but that was not the idea, but unfortunately, you used a slip to get a dig… No prob… I understand that the bias and yes violence against the idea of a preterist ideology is well prevalent and accepted with evangelicals. But be assured, we are used to it.
:wink:

Yes it is, I said that above.

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Well, we are again at a loggerheads. You know Dave, in your posts, you put down almost everything about your current life, politics, religions, situation…

The understanding of fulfilled eschatology, is simply the idea that we have a loving and progressive God (oh forbid me for using the P word) who has created us and is working in tandem with us to create a pretty great world. I think you may hate the world. And this is the position of most judgmental evangelicals, they HATE the current state of life so they yearn for an apocalyptic event to rid the earth of the scourge of humanity.

The waiting of a coming apocalypse is nothing short of an interesting position. I can understand your place, (I was there once) but just realize that you have within your power the place where God wants you to be and He is pretty keen to help you get through the rough spots.:slightly_smiling_face:

Gosh, you manged to insult me in just about every way possible in one post! Well done, Chadley! :rofl:
And nary a shred of truth in it, you wanker!

But I know you love to stir it up - better luck next time! :slight_smile: I’m settling down for a nice toasted cheese and perhaps a bit of popcorn later, and reading some Dean Koontz. A nice day and a great evening.

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Laughing… Ya, I can have a tendency to do that, but to be honest, sometimes you really don’t have a positive view of the future. :thinking:

Depends on which future we are talking about, I reckon. I most certainly am pessimistic about mankind in the near future, and I have my reasons for that. OTOH my hope for all of mankind in the larger future of promise is huge.
Back to popcorn.

Cool enjoy!

Your problem is that you hinge your belief on orthodoxy… You may well believe such, the many have spoken so you believe…and believe you have all knowledge and wisdom, but frankly, your voice is a whisper in the wind, and to be honest a fading light. You can put down new Ideas all day long, but the new ideas gather traction when there is truth behind them.

You would do well to at least accept that there are alternative views…

You really shouldn’t talk about this sort of stuff as you have no idea…

THE HOLY ANAPHORA
John Chrysostom of Antioch

PRIEST: Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

THE PROOF OF THE GOSPEL
Being the Demonstratio Evangelica of Eusebius of Cæsarea
BOOK VIII (363)

The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ. Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies. They suggest other signs of the same times as well, an abundance of peace, the overturning in nation and city of immemorial local and national forms of government, the conquest of polytheistic and daemonic idolatry, the knowledge of the religion of God the one Supreme Creator. The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions.

Want more… knock yourself out. :kiss:

For the interested… what follows is a quote from Dr Kenneth Gentry, a partial prêterist (someone who rejects the FULL prêterist view) advocating for an early dating of John’s ‘Revelation’. This quote, pages 81-87, is from his 1989 edition of ‘The Beast of Revelation’. This book is a shortened abbreviated version of his more comprehensive work ‘Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation’

As can be seen an early dating is NO insignificant position held by a few thoughtless men.

And here below are but a few quotes from what might be considered the fathers of modern Universalism being indicative of others viewing Christ’s parousia as being a foregone event…

Well, there are of course the exceptions…

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Are you still motorcycling?

These days only in and out of work AND that’s when it’s not raining… sunshine biker these days :wink:

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Well certainly there are conclusions concerning historical methodology in common. But the Ehrman I’ve read certainly did not accept the central thing that Wright wrote about in the Resurrection of the Son of God and as for the so-called ‘second coming’ there was a big break also. As to truth of the New Testament there is a division between them as well.
Ehrman has his periods of faith and then lost faith. Wright has stayed a believing Christian the whole way.
I see such radical differences between them, about the most important issues, overriding what they have ‘in common’. But hey that’s just me, YMMV of course.

Agree, myself, always a fair weather rider. Also never at night. Can’t afford a wreck. To my body or my bike…

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You’ve knocked your own self out big guy!

I’ve looked at preteristarchive.com for some time now and can see how the man distorts every little bit of everything he can to support the abomination of Preterism. You certainly have a fabrication delegation working for you in all you Preterist mentors. You simply cannot add things up! Lets take a logical look at what John Chrysostom said in THE HOLY ANAPHORA which is a liturgy about the eucharist. What was he really saying? Did he say Christ had already returned?

And the faithful respond, “Amen”, while the clergy make a profound bow.
Remembering, therefore, this saving command and all that has come to pass in our behalf: the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting at the right hand, and the second coming in glory, offering you, your own, from your own, always and everywhere:

We say the very same thing today when we celebrate the Eucharist! Chrysostom isn’t saying that the second coming had occurred HE’S SAYING THAT JUST LIKE THE CROSS - THE TOMB- THE RESURRECTION - THE ASCENSION - THE SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER - WE REMEMBER THE SECOND COMING AT THE EUCHARIST! NOT that it had already taken place, but keep in remembrance that it WILL take place!

WOW! HOW PRETERIST JUST CAN’T GET ANYTHING RIGHT!

The bizarre thing is that when Preterist celebrate the Eucharist, they have no problem saying -

1Co 11:26 CSB] 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Why doesn’t it surprise me that you follow suit and can’t read about Eusebius and can’t tell the difference between the first and second advent of Christ? I wouldn’t expect any less than a misunderstanding from you - or any misled Preterist. Eusebius is talking about specific offices in the church ending. I also have a page on the same subject. Go back to school.

Eusebius lived from A.D. 260 – 340. He is known as “the father of church history,” due to his classic work Ecclesiastical History. Several times in his writings he also dates the Book of Revelation to the reign of Domitian.

Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr, Eusebius, and even Jerome, ALL state that John was banished under Domitian and that is when he wrote the Book of Revelation.

Every Christian I know believes that when Christ returns there’s a resurrection. John Chrysostom believed in a FUTURE resurrection. He said -

“For what position can be loftier or more secure than that in which a man has only one anxiety, ‘How he ought to please God?’ Hast thou seen the shipwrecks, Theodore, of those who sail upon this sea? Wherefore, I beseech thee, avoid the deep water, avoid the stormy billows, and seize some lofty spot where it is not possible to be captured. There is a resurrection, there is a judgment, there is a terrible tribunal WHICH AWAITS us when we have gone out of this world; ‘we must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ’” (St. Chrysostom, An Exhortation To Theodore After His Fall, Letter II, 4).

If you mourn immoderately over him who has departed you will be like that unbeliever who has no hope of a resurrection**. He indeed does well to mourn, inasmuch as he cannot exercise any spiritual wisdom concerning things to come: but thou who hast received such strong proofs CONCERNING THE FUTURE LIFE, why dost thou sink into the same weakness with him? Therefore it is written ‘now concerning them that are asleep we would not have you ignorant that ye sorrow not even as others who have no hope’" (Chrysostom: Omily On The Paralytic Let Down Through The Roof).

The bible warns us there will be scoffers in the last days saying, where is the promise of his coming” (II Peter 3:3-4)

Preterism is a demonic attack on God’s Prophetic word. There is no greater abomination.

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I see you have a penchant for accusing that which you disagree with as being a fabrication… can’t wait to see how you rewrite the likes of those classic Universalist scholars such as Hanson, Thayer, Ballou, Paige and Guild etc, etc :face_with_raised_eyebrow: