Question for full preterists

davo · November 21, 2019, 10:55am

This too makes interesting reading from Eusebius Pamphili of Caesarea (AD. 264-339). When Eusebius speaks of the historian he refers to the non-Christian chronicler Flavius Josephus.

Book III. Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.

It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.

His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.

These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:

“If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”

And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.

Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.

But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.

Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.

Book III. Chapter VIII.—The Signs which preceded the War.

Taking, then, the work of this author, read what he records in the sixth book of his History. His words are as follows: “Thus were the miserable people won over at this time by the impostors and false prophets; but they did not heed nor give credit to the visions and signs that foretold the approaching desolation. On the contrary, as if struck by lightning, and as if possessing neither eyes nor understanding, they slighted the proclamations of God.

At one time a star, in form like a sword, stood over the city, and a comet, which lasted for a whole year; and again before the revolt and before the disturbances that led to the war, when the people were gathered for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthicus, at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone about the altar and the temple that it seemed to be bright day; and this continued for half an hour. This seemed to the unskillful a good sign, but was interpreted by the sacred scribes as portending those events which very soon took place.

And at the same feast a cow, led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

And the eastern gate of the inner temple, which was of bronze and very massive, and which at evening was closed with difficulty by twenty men, and rested upon iron-bound beams, and had bars sunk deep in the ground, was seen at the sixth hour of the night to open of itself.

And not many days after the feast, on the twenty-first of the month Artemisium, a certain marvelous vision was seen which passes belief. The prodigy might seem fabulous were it not related by those who saw it, and were not the calamities which followed deserving of such signs. For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities.

This too is interesting…

Pseudo-Clementines (2—3rd century)

“Subsequently also an evident proof of this great mystery is supplied in the fact, that every one who, believing in this Prophet who had been foretold by Moses, is baptized in His name, shall be kept unhurt from the destruction of war which impends over the unbelieving nation, and the place itself; but that those who do not believe shall be made exiles from their place and kingdom, that even against their will they may understand and obey the will of God.” (Recognitions 1:39:3)

Eusebius

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.” (History of the Church 3:5:3)

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)

“After all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel and which is situated in the neighborhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion’s preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there.” (Panarion 30:2)

"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).

“Now this sect of Nazarenes exists in Beroea in Coele-Syria, and in Decapolis in the district of Pella, and in Kochaba of Basanitis–called Kohoraba in Hebrew. For thence it originated after the migration from Jerusalem of all the disciples who resided at Pella, Christ having instructed them to leave Jerusalem and retire from it on account of the impending siege. It was owing to this counsel that they went away, as I have said, to reside for a while at Pella” (Haer 29:7).

"For when all who believed in Christ had settled down about that time in Peraea, the majority of the emigrants taking up their abode at Pella, a town belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the Gospel, near Batanea and the district to Basanitis, Ebion got his excuse and opportunity. At first their abode was Kochaba, a village in the district of Carnaim, Arnem, and Astaroth, in the region of Basanitis, according to the information we have received. But I have spoken, in other connections and with regard to other heresies, of the locality of Kochaba and Arabia (Haer 30:2)… “[The Ebionites] spring for the most part from Batanea … and Paneas, as well as from Moabitis and Cochaba in Basanitis on the other side of Adraa” (Haer 30:18).

Epiphanius

“The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged. For this reason they settled in Peraea and there, as I said, they lived. This is where the Nazoraean sect began.” (Panarion 29:7:7-8)

“Their sect began after the capture of Jerusalem. For when all those who believed in Christ settled at that time for the most part in Peraea, in a city called Pella belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the gospel, which is next to Batanaea and the land of Bashan, then they moved there and stayed…” (Panarion 30:2:7)

"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis " (On Weights and Measures 15)

Eutychius of Alexandria

“Qistus, governor of Jerusalem, died and the city was without any authority or sovereign to govern it. The Jews then arose and rioted and killed James, son of Joseph, known as the “brother of the Lord”, stoning him to death. Then they harassed a group of disciples and expelled them from the city. The Christians abandoned Jerusalem, crossed the Jordan and settled in those places. Informed of this fact, Nero Caesar sent word to the commander stationed in the East, named Vespasian, to rally his troops and go to Judea with orders to kill all the inhabitants, sparing none, and to destroy the houses.” (The Annals of Eutychius of Alexandria, ch. 9:)

…worth some dispassionate consideration I would think.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · November 21, 2019, 1:57pm

Well, it’s NOT often I get on a soapbox. But today I will.

For Al-K-Hall, what would be the MOST appalling idea?

That Preterism is true?
Or some type of future tribulation is true. But the most likely candidate is Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)?

Well, I’ll let him ponder that. Let’s get back to this gentleman, that Holly tree brought up.

Let me quote something here:

Gentry is perhaps best known for his book Before Jerusalem Fell , which argues that the Book of Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. He holds that many of the dramatic events in Revelation correspond to the persecution of Christians under the Roman imperium as well as to the Jewish War against Rome which resulted in the destruction of Jewish temple. This book is the published version of his doctoral dissertation in 1986 under the title “The Dating of the Book of Revelation: An Exegetical, Theological and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition.”

Well, his book is based upon this PhD dissertation. And dissertation committees are made up of distinguished professors - often with opposing academic views. So if the dissertation committee approved this, it means they felt - his research is strong. And he could argue for Preterism, based upon a “revised” Book of Revelation dating.

Now let me pose a question.

What does it mean, when we say that we’re created in the image and likeness of God?

And

Greater works than these shall you do?

To which I add this, to this second question:

Is that statement, just limited to Christians?

Last night, I visited an art gallery - run by the local Methodist church. But once a month, the Japanese light group Sukyo Mahikari visited - to give light.

Well, they had an 81- year-old black lady visit And she was a study of Joel Goldsmith, for decades. We got to talking. You see, Joel Goldsmith was a metaphysical healer. And he was originally part of Mary Baker Eddy’s organization - Christian Science. So I’m very familiar with Mary Baker Eddy and Joel Goldsmith. And I feel their healing methods are sound. Even though I view them as contemplation, rather than theology. And they are compatible, with modern medicine and ancient healing modalities.

So anyway, this lady talks about sitting in silence. And internalizing some passages of Christian scripture. Well, it’s similar to this ancient Eastern Orthodox practice.

And this approach by Emmet Fox

Both valid healing approaches, in my book.

Then I came across a book entitled Urban Mystic by Ray Grasse. And it’s about Goswami Kriyananda, a deceased Eastern teacher from Chicago. And I studied with him - for years. Let me quote a passage, that intrigued me.

To be able to enter into the dream of God means you then stand to gain the divine siddhis, the divine energies and powers associated with living in that dream - and therefore you can heal people. You can help people.

Or to put it more mystically, by entering into that cosmic dream you can help God with his responsibility.

Well, this is covered more fully in the book This House Is On Fire: The Life of Shri Dhyanyogi by Shri Anandi Ma. Well, I studied under both the author and the person the biography was about. And there’s even a group picture in the book, with me in it.

And spiritual healing, is explored with this guy:

And when i was part of the extended family, of the Two Feathers Medicine Clan. I studied under the guidance of medicine men Duke Big Feather and Joseph Many Horses. And you can get deep, by reading books like Beyond the Lodge of the Sun: Inner Mysteries of the Native American Way (The “Earth Quest” Series) vy Chokecherry Gall Eagle or Fools Crow Wisdom and Power by Lutheran minister Thomas Mails.

So what does it really mean, to be made in the image and likeness of God? Or to do greater works than Christ? And is that just limited to Christians? And if the devil was “responsible”…how does he “benefit”, if you give all the credit - back to God?

Would we potentially, become like these Tibetans?

And for For Al-K-Hall, what would be the MOST appalling idea?

That Preterism is true?
Or some type of future tribulation is true. But the most likely candidate is Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)?

All this reflection, brings a song to mind.

hollytree · November 21, 2019, 12:44pm

Gentry’s view is my view Randy. The new heavens and earth began in 70 AD but hasn’t fully developed or worked itself out. We haven’t reached the full consummations yet. I believe things have been slowly improving since the NT times and 70 AD destruction. There are setbacks but It will overall continually get better and better until the full consumation of the new heaven and earth where there will be no more death or suffering.

davo · November 21, 2019, 12:45pm

Yep that’s the partial prêterist postmillennial view.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · November 21, 2019, 2:27pm

Al-K-Hall to Davo!

We need a short video, to illustrate this sentiment.

Dave to Chad.

How about THIS future, Dave?

Perhaps I should include, a video discussing Preterism? This does back the partial preterist view.

Al-K-Hall · November 21, 2019, 7:35pm

I thought I explained this before. FYI -

I’m not a dispensationalist and I don’t believe in the futurist view of Daniel’s 70TH week. They’re obsessed with Daniel’s 70th week. So I disagree with some futurist on the timeframe of ages.

From creation to the time of Noah is the first age. Most call it the first dispensation but I don’t like calling any of the ages a ‘dispensation’.

The second age or ‘dispensation’ is from the flood - the time Noah - to the time of Christ. Call it what you like, the Old Covenant age or the age of Judaic and Mosaic law. That Old Covenant was fulfilled at Christ first advent especially when he was Crucified and the curtain was torn. That signified the end of the age.

FROM THAT TIME (30-33 AD) -
We are living in the church age - the age from the time of Christ to the resurrection or return of Christ at the PAROUSIA - it’s the period of time the Church is on earth. After that -

Is the Millennial age or the 1,000 years mentioned 6 times in Revelation 20. We could also say that age begins at the Parousia and goes through eternity.

What age is Paul talking about in 1 Cor. 10:11? Look at the context. As I said in a previous post -

Twice Paul says that this is all an example for them - that they need to learn from Moses’ mistakes. The age he’s talking about is the one that began with Noah - the time of Moses which ended at the time of Christ.

“Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

Bob_Wilson · November 21, 2019, 7:16pm

I’m all for debating such interpretations. But that those who have faced harsh rejection and bucked the orthodox paradigm of heresy hunters by embracing universalism, or often even questioning the classic Trinitarian view of God, should then call brethren who embrace some minority view of eschatology blasphemous heretics just sounds absolutely bizarre to me.

And it doesn’t suggest much chance of overcoming the tendency we all have to focus on ad hominem attacks rather that trying to understand the substance of how we arrive at differing interpretations.

Al-K-Hall · November 21, 2019, 7:30pm

Most Christians who accept Trinitarianism have no clue of the pagan origins of the Trinity. It’s a doctrine that was devised by the Catholic’s under dyer circumstances. Trinitarians often condemn non-Trinitarians. I don’t condemn anyone, but I do believe Preterism was inspired by the evil ones.

I believe Jesus when he said the Father is greater.

I believe him when he said he doesn’t know the day or hour of his return.

I believe him when he says he can do nothing on his own.

I also believe him when he said blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not. If they were the same person blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other.

IF the holy spirit is the same yet separate person “why doesn’t the holy spirit have a name, and why isn’t he found in or around the Throne of God?” I can tell you why. The Holy Spirit IS the Seven Spirits of God.

We know that God cannot be tempted and He cannot sin. IF Jesus were God that makes the cross a hoax and Jesus a fraud because Jesus - being God - could not have sinned anyway!

Bob_Wilson · November 21, 2019, 7:54pm

As a nonTrinitarian or preterist, I appreciate your confirmation of what I find totally bizarre. Frankly when anyone’s case for their beliefs emphasizes accusing those arguing a different hermeneutic of being blasphemous heretics, I lack trust the discussion will be able to calmly engage the substance at issue.

Al-K-Hall · November 21, 2019, 7:52pm

The torn veil/curtain behind the altar of Holy of Holies signified the end of the law. Mankind’s separation from God had been removed by Jesus’ sacrifice at Calvary.

Al-K-Hall · November 21, 2019, 7:53pm

Thank you for the admonition.

Al-K-Hall · November 21, 2019, 8:02pm

J. Barton Payne’s Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy lists 1,239 prophecies in the Old Testament and 578 prophecies in the New Testament, for a total of 1,817. I’m not sure how many are END-TIME prophecies. The 578 in the NT are mostly end-time.

I believe people accept Preterism because it’s so easy to say “it already happened,” and they don’t want to speculate or take a chance being wrong on an interpretation.

steve7150 · November 21, 2019, 8:11pm

I like Al’s analysis of eschatology as to me it makes the most sense but everything has presumptions. Al is taking mostly OT verses and applying it to modern day Islamic countries because of very logical reasons which i agree with , but it’s not a slam dunk.
Every view does this including Preterism which makes assumptions of resurrections and the return of Jesus and judgments & other things with no physical evidence. Many things in the NT reference 70AD but not everything and i don’t see Revelation in a highly symbolic way repeating events supposedly in 70AD when those events were already described clearly in the gospels such as the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. If Revelation was about 70AD, it would be the ultimate example of overkill.
Lastly Jerusalem was slowly strangled to death in 70AD , not the sudden destruction described in the actual end times.

Bob_Wilson · November 21, 2019, 8:31pm

Why is it “easy” to say all the prophecies “already happened”? (I think it’s hard to show that) And why is there “no chance” that Preterism IS wrong on its interpretation?

I actually perceive that it’s more difficult going against the grain of the majority tradition and supporting preterism. More important, psychologizing and demonizing motives for someone else’s exegesis is besides the point. All that matters is engaging the textual substance and exegesis.

DaveB2.0 · November 21, 2019, 9:07pm

Sorry Bob - I ‘liked’ that comment of yours and actually did like it!

hollytree · November 21, 2019, 9:40pm

I’ve called blasphemy many times. I’ve repented since then and received even more healing. I ask for forgiveness for my hatred.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · November 22, 2019, 12:15am

Well, let’s look at Got Questions again. And some stuff, that is relevant here.

Well, I don’t see Got Questions complaining about the Trinity - being a “Catholic” concept.Or having “Pagan” origins.

Regardless of its origins, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and major Protestant denominations (i.e. Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc.) - subscribe to it. As well as non-denominational, Bible and community churches.

Are they “heretics”? The brightest of the bright theologians have historically - and contemporary - brought into it.

And prestigious Christian colleges - like Wheaton College - teach it.

It’s here to stay. Like it or not.

Now let me let my anger out.

Having said that…and this is a thread on Preterism…I would consider Partial Preterism, an orthodox view…even if I don’t subscribe to it. And I would consider Full Preterism, a non-Orthodox view.

Just a comment on the devil. We can classify things by three causes:

It’s from God
It’s from the devil and evil angels
It’s from scientific and natural causes

Before we rule something from the devil or God (AKA Preterism), we must first rule out scientific and natural causes.

And sometimes a thread gets bogged down by back and forth “dialogue”. And it’s hard to tell, who is who - without a scorecard.

And sometimes threads can prompt folks, to go to war - even calm and collected Holy Fools

But rest assured, they have ample cause.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · November 21, 2019, 11:47pm

I wonder if this future church, is heretical or not?

And remember this!

Al-K-Hall · November 22, 2019, 12:20am

That’s close to what I said. It ENDED the age - it was NOT the beginning of the end for it! 70 AD has nothing to do with the end of any age! 30-33 AD ended an era or age and the new covenant began!

Al-K-Hall · November 22, 2019, 12:20am

Gotquestions doesn’t have detailed answers to anything. They’re trinitarians anyway so why would they explain anything about its origins.

I shouldn’t do this because I’m basically derailing the thread -

The Trinity doctrine developed from a power struggle between Arius and Athanasius. Arius was non-trinitarian, and Athanasius developed Trinitarianism. It became more of a political argument than a theological or biblical one. Once Christianity became the state religion of the Roman empire, power within the church became political. Arius and Athanasius had significant followings and they both wanted power. The two groups fought savage battles with each other and were rioting against each other over it. Trinitarian Athanasius was more brutal, more powerful, and more emotional about his beliefs and literally destroyed his opponent Arius and his followers, so Constantine sided with him.

The state religion of Rome was in trouble and Constantine realized that Christianity itself had to be united if it were to be the state religion. The issue of how to formulate a creed about the nature of Jesus became a political dispute, not a religious one. One side had to be chosen as right, and the other side must be silenced. He came down on the side of Athanasius for political reasons- adopted the trinitarian creed for the church, and exiled Arius. And so, Jesus ‘became’ God because of that.

“There are numerous accounts of Athanasius’ followers beating and murdering non-trinitarian Christians in the lead-up to the Council of Nicea, torturing their victims and parading their dead bodies around.” (See Richard Hanson, The Search For The Christian Doctrine Of God: The Arian Controversy 318-381 (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1988) p. 386.)

The trinitarian Athanasius was by far the more brutal. “Bishop Athanasius, a future saint… had his opponents excommunicated and anathematized, beaten and intimidated, kidnapped, imprisoned, and exiled to distant provinces.” (Richard Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God (London: Harcourt, 2000) p. 6.)