The Evangelical Universalist Forum

R. Parry: Animation on heaven & earth in biblical theology

Hey! I really liked that! :sunglasses:

Doesn’t seem to leave much space for hell, does it?

Indeed :smiley:

Looks like they’ve already done Genesis (in two parts – which is why they’re asking for kickstarter funding on Exodus):

Incidentally, the Catholic(s) doctrine(s) of the Real Presence in the Lord’s Supper (Mass, holy communion, eucharist etc.), is very closely related to what they were talking about in that first video.

Yes, I watched the first one on Genesis last night & the 2nd one just then. I reckon they’ve done a pretty good job given there are some difficult & controversial bits in Genesis. I made a donation after watching the Heaven & Earth video as I’m keen to see them continue making these. Not only are they aiming to do every book in the Bible, they are doing some interesting Biblical Themes too:

]Heaven + Earth (Done)/:m]
]The Messiah/:m]
]The Law/:m]
]The Covenants/:m]
]Promised Land/:m]
]Day of Yaweh/:m]
]Kingdom of God/:m]
]Son of God/:m]
]The Cross/:m]
]The Holy Spirit/:m]
]World Mission/:m]
]New Humanity/:m]
]The Church/:m]
]Gospel + Justice/:m]
]Return of Christ/:m]
]New Creation/:m]

This is a tricky book for universalists in particular, as it has revenge, God killing babies & hardening Pharaoh’s heart, the substitutionary passover… What do you think of their take on it?

Can’t say they did a good job introducing the concept of “justice”, much less opposing it to “mercy”. :angry:

Admittedly it’s a standard concept, and they can only pass on what they’ve learned, but still, sigh.

Might have been better had they made it a bit clearer that the God Who slays the firstborn sons (rather more peacefully than the other deaths of the plagues by the way) comes to ransom all sinners, not only Israel, by sharing in the deaths of those firstborn sons as the only-begotten Son – while sharing in the pain inflicted by the other plagues as well.

But maybe they didn’t want to fast-forward topically too much.

Woah, where did they get this idea that the lamb was a substitute? Where’s this idea that the lamb is punished by God or even that the sin of the Israelites is involved at all in having to have a lamb killed?

In verse 13 of Exodus 12, it says that the blood “shall be a sign for you” - a sign of the house being a house of God’s chosen people. Nowhere does it say anything about God needing the blood so He can satisfy his ‘justice’ - the lamb is not a substitute because He needed someone or something to punish.

Obviously there is a sense in which the blood does avert God’s striking down/judgement but it’s not that the lamb was judged by Him instead. There are far too many people who believe it’s some eschatological picture where God’s people have the lamb as their substitute and therefore don’t get punished but receive eternal life, and those who aren’t God’s people have no substitute and therefore receive eternal punishment. If that were true then why didn’t ALL the Egyptians get killed by the plague? After all, if they’ve all sinned and they have no substitute to take their punishment then surely they would ALL be killed?

People fail to realise that though there is sin obviously involved, this is primarily about God freeing Israel from slavery. He doesn’t kill the firstborn sons just because Pharaoh ordered the newborn sons of Israel to be thrown into the Nile River - needless to say, that vile act was hardly the fault of the firstborn sons of Egypt that are struck down in Exodus 12. It may well be a reference to it but not because any debt of justice is paid when they are killed. And also, the firstborn of the livestock are killed as well - unless you want to start claiming that animals can sin, then the point is inaccurate. (Just to add to Jason’s point, I think you could argue that as well as Jesus sharing in the deaths of the firstborn sons when He dies on the cross, He also shares in the deaths of the animals as well)

So yes, God’s people do not receive these judgements that the Egyptians do but the judgements that the Egyptians receive are not the complete destruction of them - instead, the firstborns are struck down to free the Israelites from slavery, which leads to and also symbolises the death of Jesus (who is innocent of sin), which itself is in part to show that He shares in our pain and suffering, even that which He inflicts as a means of freedom from sin itself. So the passover lamb is not a substitute and if it was, then all the Egyptians would have been killed for not having a substitute, if you’re going by the typical theology you see in a majority of churches.

Sorry, got a bit wound up!