Ralph Martin: UR undermines Catholic Church's world mission

[Alex_Smith]

patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2013/08/will-many-be-saved.html

Will many be saved?… or how the sweet, but noxious atmosphere of universalism has undermined the Catholic Church’s mission to the world.

Ralph Martin is the Director of Graduate Theology Programs in the New Evangelization at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit. He is also President of Renewal Ministries and a consulter to the Pontifical Council for the New Evangelization. In this prophetic yet scholarly book Martin charts the rise of universalism in the church (the idea that all will be saved) and the damage it has done to the church’s mission.

Article allows commenting.

[JasonPratt]

There are still 1.1 billion Catholics despite the RCCs not having much of a mission per se for the past couple of centuries, somewhat over half the Christians on the planet.

I wish UR undermined our missions that much.

Also, I’ve gotten the impression that the “Divine Mercy” mandate has been very successful in mission work for the RCC in the past decade or so (well, only a blip by RCC population standards, but massively huge by most Protestant standards); and we know Catholic universalists (and authorities highly sympathetic to them) were and are heavily involved in that.

[Sherman]

I posted on the site, but haven’t seen it come up yet. Basicly I affirmed that the reason for lack in evangelism is a lack of love for God and love for people. And then I looked at several reasons I find UR very inspirational and empowering concerning evangelism. It’s from a different perspective so it will be interesting to see if it develops any discussion.

[1824]

Fr Dwight Longenecker wrote:

I think speculation along these lines is legitimate. However, I think the idea that vast numbers will be damned can also be argued with other forms of speculation. So, for instance, what if the damned are on a decreasing spiral of quality? If the saved are ascending and growing up the full statue of Christ Jesus and being divinized what if the damned are doing the opposite. If you like, they are becoming less and less–smaller and smaller–increasingly insignificant. Their damnation then may be the damnation of beings who are virtually worthless anyway. As they have descended into the darkness they have become no more than shadows or ciphers of what they could have been. Furthermore, nature is wasteful is it not? Many many acorns. Few oak trees. We do not like to imagine it, but** what if many were wasted** so that some may become children of light? This would seem to be consistent with Scripture although it is admittedly unpalatable in an egalitarian age.

Wow… what a disgusting view of ones fellow humanity. And what a reprehensible view of God, to suggest that He created the vast majority of humanity for them to all be “wasted.”

[AllanS]

I posted on the site, but haven’t seen it come up yet.

Me too.

I basically said that a shepherd who loses most of his sheep isn’t good, but bad.

We’ll see if it passes the censors.

[Alex_Smith]

Fr Dwight Longenecker wrote:

I think speculation along these lines is legitimate. However, I think the idea that vast numbers will be damned can also be argued with other forms of speculation. So, for instance, what if the damned are on a decreasing spiral of quality? If the saved are ascending and growing up the full statue of Christ Jesus and being divinized what if the damned are doing the opposite. If you like, they are becoming less and less–smaller and smaller–increasingly insignificant. Their damnation then may be the damnation of beings who are virtually worthless anyway.

As they have descended into the darkness they have become no more than shadows or ciphers of what they could have been. Furthermore, nature is wasteful is it not? Many many acorns. Few oak trees. We do not like to imagine it, but** what if many were wasted** so that some may become children of light? This would seem to be consistent with Scripture although it is admittedly unpalatable in an egalitarian age.

Wow… what a disgusting view of ones fellow humanity. And what a reprehensible view of God, to suggest that He created the vast majority of humanity for them to all be “wasted.”

Yeah, doesn’t sit well with me either

Haven’t seen either Sherman’s or dad’s comments so I doubt they’ll allow mine either

I’ve meet almost 900 Evangelical Universalists over the past few years & honestly the majority are more passionate about evangelism now, than when they weren’t Universalists. The think people who use it as an excuse have failed to grasp the immensity of the blessing it is to have a relationship with Christ & to start to escape the chains of sin. Not only that, they are failing to love God & others as they ought.

EUs don’t believe people “just go to heaven no matter what”, but they believe that everyone will repent & have faith in Christ - the sooner that happens, the better!

[Sherman]

Hey, they added our posts, but they buried them in the middle. Interesting.

[JasonPratt]

Fr Dwight Longenecker wrote:

I think speculation along these lines is legitimate. However, I think the idea that vast numbers will be damned can also be argued with other forms of speculation. So, for instance, what if the damned are on a decreasing spiral of quality? If the saved are ascending and growing up the full statue of Christ Jesus and being divinized what if the damned are doing the opposite. If you like, they are becoming less and less–smaller and smaller–increasingly insignificant. Their damnation then may be the damnation of beings who are virtually worthless anyway.

As they have descended into the darkness they have become no more than shadows or ciphers of what they could have been. Furthermore, nature is wasteful is it not? Many many acorns. Few oak trees. We do not like to imagine it, but** what if many were wasted** so that some may become children of light? This would seem to be consistent with Scripture although it is admittedly unpalatable in an egalitarian age.

Wow… what a disgusting view of ones fellow humanity. And what a reprehensible view of God, to suggest that He created the vast majority of humanity for them to all be “wasted.”

Sad to say, he’s kind-of following Lewis on this point. (Or Lewis was following some earlier thinkers, which is just as likely.)

Argh, my browser doesn’t like Disqus (and/or vice versa), so I can’t get a reply window to stay open; but I was going to point out something if someone else wants to take a shot at it:

The disciples ask, “Lord will many be saved?” He replies, “Broad is the way that leads to destruction and there are many who are on it. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be who find it.” The idea therefore of many being saved and few (or none) being damned directly contradicts the Lord’s teaching.

Odd that the Lord then directly contradicted His own teaching by going on to warn the guy who asked that question that he was going to be really upset one day when he sees many people coming from all corners of the compass to recline with the patriarchs and the prophets, but he himself thrown out into the darkness where the weeping is and the gnashing of teeth! Thus the first will be last and the last will be first (a usual Synoptic indication of a reversal-expectation parable/judgment).

Even if I was (still) ECT, I wouldn’t appeal to that scripture for evidence only a few are being saved. There are numerous scriptures indicating a number beyond human reckoning being saved, starting with (and no doubt anchored in) God’s covenant with Abraham about the excessive number of (clearly spiritual) children he would have.

Still, it’s nice to see that the RCC allows its priests to contradict papal statements – can hardly complain about a lack of freedom to disagree there!

[Caleb_Fogg]

Hey, they added our posts, but they buried them in the middle. Interesting.

I have it sorted by Newest, and so your post, and Alex and Allan’s are at the top for me.

[Sherman]

Hey, they added our posts, but they buried them in the middle. Interesting.

I have it sorted by Newest, and so your post, and Alex and Allan’s are at the top for me.

Oops, my bad. You’re correct.

[Eric]

don’t worry Alex, the Good news of the Kingdom will be preached in the world then the end will come,
everyone will know about it at the end, many think idea of UR is dangerous

and God is in control, he is revealing the Good news himself step by step

I don’t want to judge them but many think they are the TRUE believers of the Real Jesus Christ
specially the ECTs (Good news is not just about Jesus crucifixion for sins)

that day he will say to them depart from me I never knew you, and they will be shocked

the one who Jesus warned us to come out of it in Revelation was the Doctrine of Hell.

[akimel]

A response, of sorts, to Martin and Longenecker: The Catholic Church and the Return of Hell.